Religion

LaBlueGirl · Post by **LaBlueGirl** » 11 Feb 2007, 11:41

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la- ... -rightrail

7) Atheists are closed to spiritual experience.

There is nothing that prevents an atheist from experiencing love, ecstasy, rapture and awe; atheists can value these experiences and seek them regularly. What atheists don't tend to do is make unjustified (and unjustifiable) claims about the nature of reality on the basis of such experiences. There is no question that some Christians have transformed their lives for the better by reading the Bible and praying to Jesus. What does this prove? It proves that certain disciplines of attention and codes of conduct can have a profound effect upon the human mind. Do the positive experiences of Christians suggest that Jesus is the sole savior of humanity? Not even remotely — because Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and even atheists regularly have similar experiences. There is, in fact, not a Christian on this Earth who can be certain that Jesus even wore a beard, much less that he was born of a virgin or rose from the dead. These are just not the sort of claims that spiritual experience can authenticate.

LaBlueGirl · Post by **LaBlueGirl** » 11 Feb 2007, 12:13

CircuitB0mB wrote: But how can you disbelieve in something that is higher than yourself?

What if it isn't "higher", but on a different plane of existence?

CircuitB0mB wrote:What then can you believe in? Believing in yourself is simply bravery or cowardice and a simple choice....explain ghosts, explain phenomenon, explain to me the magic that creates life, the electricity that charges that egg and makes it do what it does when a sperm enters it? explain to me the changes plant life goes through and the natural way of evolution and why evolution happens...

It depends.
I could believe, since we are in the 3rd dimension, there are other dimensions equally as real.
And inhabiting these other dimensions are entities.

Ghosts can be physical manifestations of 'psychic' individuals.
They can be inorganic beings from another attention.
They can be the deceased who don't move on, to wherever 'on' may be.

The magic which creates life could be from God, the Eagle, or simply molecules crashing together.

CircuitB0mB wrote:explain the stigmata

Well, physical manifestations from beings of other realms.

Or God trying to make his voice heard.
But then explain:
Why did God stop performing miracles as he did in Biblical times?

CircuitB0mB wrote:why would so many people, hold their beliefs so high as to die for them?

Because faith picks up where science leaves off, and vice versa. Until irrefutable proof one way or another emerges, that's the way it'll be.
If I know I am going to heaven when I die, it makes enduring all the suffering associated with life do-able.
If there is no afterlife, or no heaven, then it kind of makes suffering while we're alive harder to bear.
There would be no eternal reward.

CircuitB0mB wrote:explain to me how 7 in a car accident 6 die instantly and one lives with minor injuries....luck?

explain why humans are the dominant a smartest lifeform on this planet...why not dolphines why not pigs?

Could be luck.
Could be that one person was drunk, therefore his body more pliable. Could be divine intervention. Could be the angle of impact.

We don't know if we are the smartest animals on the planet.
Have you talked to a pig lately?
lol, sorry:)

CircuitB0mB wrote:religion isnt just worship in a deity, its an answer...

its an answer to why this and why that

Yeup, but not 'the' answer, and not for everyone.
Same thing with science.
Neither can fully explain all phenomena.

CircuitB0mB wrote:its mostly a state of mind...im tired of hearing im this and im that, and i believe in this and that...i dont have to tell anyone what i am or what i believe because i know what i am and what i believe, i dont "have" to write about it or debate with others about it, i dont need to know where im going, all i need to know is where ive been and what ive learned...from all things in life we learn knowledge....however knowledge is not wisdom.

Wisdom is knowledge applied in practical situations where we derive answers which are more correct or true from others

And no, you don't have to tell or prove anything to anyone.

CircuitB0mB wrote:Wisdom is the ability, developed through experience, insight and reflection, to discern truth and exercise good judgment. Wisdom is sometimes conceptualized as an especially well developed form of common sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom

The classical definition for knowledge, found in (although not ultimately endorsed by) Plato, has it that in order for there to be knowledge at least three criteria must be fulfilled; that in order to count as knowledge, a statement must be justified, true, and believed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge.

Might I suggest you read Theaetetus?

CircuitB0mB wrote:To finalize this post and point - You may think your Atheist, but do you "know" for sure that you are? Posting to debate someone about such an issue and looking for someone to contend your belief is an outcry for someone to change your mind - how do you know your not Agnostic?

The superior man thinks always of virtue; the common man thinks of comfort. -Confucius

Belief consists in accepting the affirmations of the soul; unbelief, in denying them. -Ralph Waldo Emerson

Define virtue.
Define 'affirmations of the soul'.

CircuitB0mB wrote:True philosophers who are burning with love for truth and learning never see themselves . . . as wise man, brim- full of knowledge . . . For most of them would admit that even the very greatest number of things of which we know is only equal to the very smallest fraction of things of which we are ignorant. Nor are these philosophers so addicted to any kind of tradition or doctrine that they suffer themselves to become their slaves, and thus lose their liberty. -William Harvey

But what is a 'true' philosopher?
Can such a being exist?
Surely, most understand we only see pieces of the puzzle.
Traditions in philosphy are also known as schools of thought.
There is a category for everything.
While it is tenuous at best to say one can become addicted to their school of thought, one is nearly always ascribed to a certain school of thought.

Methinks Sophists were the ones who were as close as you can get to 'slaves'. Although this term is ill-fitting.

CircuitB0mB wrote:Sit down before fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing. -Thomas Henry Huxley

Certainly, but this also applies to atheists!!!

LaBlueGirl · Post by **LaBlueGirl** » 11 Feb 2007, 12:22

CircuitB0mB wrote:one more thing...

Atheism is a world view which accepts nature without resorting to supernatural explanations, magic, superstition, or beliefs. Information is accepted or rejected based on reason and verifiable observation.

If your Atheist you disbelieve in god(s) because you have no cold hard evidence to support your belief in them...or because you cant see them.

Agnosticism is a belief that neither denies or accepts the existence of one or many gods.

Atheists are often imagined to be intolerant, immoral, depressed, blind to the beauty of nature and dogmatically closed to evidence of the supernatural......

http://www.filmatheist.com/board/viewto ... 908988e914

http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9676.htm

http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutatheis ... ligion.htm

Tep · Post by **Tep** » 11 Feb 2007, 15:10

WEll from what i have read the argument has been one sided. YOu all seems to lean towards Atheism. I apologize if you dont i just simply scanned over the post.

I myself believe in God; but i am not a fan of religion. My reasoning behind this is simply because i find that religion is man's interputatuions and thoughts gather from reading the bible or there own ideas on how life began. Although i attend a Baptist church i do not consider my self Baptist because i do not agree with all the believe in. I do however consider myself a Christian because i believe in Christ.

Building need builders, Paintings need painters, and Creations need creators.

Post by **Gogeta70** » 11 Feb 2007, 16:25

Who created god, then?

If you say he's been here forever, i'll have to slap you.

Post by **CommonStray** » 11 Feb 2007, 16:38

Its not that he or she has been here forever

But that God IS forever

In the Christian sense of God, the bible states that God is the alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and knower of things known and to be known.

As well LBG, nice job picking apart my post...Why doesn't God preform miracles like he did in biblical times?

Because your not looking for them

Swan · Post by **Swan** » 11 Feb 2007, 16:41

My faith wants me to be a good person and to better myself and protect the weak. I want to join an organisiation that will better faciliate this, but if i join, I am commitng a mortal sin and am no longer welcome.

I can be forgiven for extortion rape and murder, but membership of this society means that I cannot be a friend of the Church anymore.

And thats fine. I will go and do all the good deeds that I can, and then when I die and God judes me I can finally eat at his table.

This is the same God that killed his only son, that abandoded him to bleed and die with shame like a common criminal? Man that sucks

LaBlueGirl · Post by **LaBlueGirl** » 12 Feb 2007, 04:29

Tep wrote:WEll from what i have read the argument has been one sided. YOu all seems to lean towards Atheism. I apologize if you dont i just simply scanned over the post.

I myself believe in God; but i am not a fan of religion. My reasoning behind this is simply because i find that religion is man's interputatuions and thoughts gather from reading the bible or there own ideas on how life began. Although i attend a Baptist church i do not consider my self Baptist because i do not agree with all the believe in. I do however consider myself a Christian because i believe in Christ.

Building need builders, Paintings need painters, and Creations need creators.

And that's cool

While my beliefs are different than atheism and (in general), deism, I sincerely hope there is an 'originator' in all of this.

And if not, I hope there's reincarnation

But these beliefs can be merely to soothe my conscience.
We don't know who's right or who is wrong.

So, I just like to 'argue the subject' from every point I can, pointing out logical fallacies

It's good practice.

LaBlueGirl · Post by **LaBlueGirl** » 12 Feb 2007, 04:37

gogeta70 wrote:Who created god, then?

If you say he's been here forever, i'll have to slap you.

This is taken from a paper I wrote re: Aquinas' 5 Ways. Here are two of his 'ways'

:

The Five Ways according to Aquinas are as follows:
1. The Unmoved Mover. The supreme being who set the universe in motion, as it were. Aristotle held the Prime Mover as the agent of change and everything exists in his intellect, whereas Aquinas believed the agent to be God with all residing in his intellect and essence.

2. The Uncaused Cause. Everything in the Universe has to have been caused into being. There cannot be an infinite number of causes so the first cause must have been God. This is also what is known as the Cosmological Argument for the creation and existence of the universe. If we allow for the chain of efficient causes to have a starting point as dictated by some supreme entity, we also must allow the argument to the contrary in favor of eternity without a necessary cause.

LaBlueGirl · Post by **LaBlueGirl** » 12 Feb 2007, 04:42

CircuitB0mB wrote:Its not that he or she has been here forever

But that God IS forever

In the Christian sense of God, the bible states that God is the alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and knower of things known and to be known.

As well LBG, nice job picking apart my post...Why doesn't God preform miracles like he did in biblical times?

Because your not looking for them

Ahh, don't be offended, circuit!!!!

That was not something I'd expect from you

And if you weren't offended, sorry for the above

I understand what you mean re: miracles.

I was talking about more in the literal sense.

Protestants ascribe literal value to the Bible.

So in the Protestant sense, Jesus *literally* walked on water, changed 1 loaf of bread and 2 fish into many, water into wine, raised ppl from the dead, cured lepers, you get the idea.

So why doesn't this happen anymore?

I see 'small-scale' miracles every day, no doubt.

But these can all be reasoned away, as it were.

I suppose you could attribute it to society as a whole has changed since Biblical times, and give supporting statements to that effect

Cynicism running rampant through modern society, so God chooses to be more subtle

I'm not here to "disprove" you.

Just trying to debate.

LaBlueGirl · Post by **LaBlueGirl** » 12 Feb 2007, 04:50

baron_samedi wrote:My faith wants me to be a good person and to better myself and protect the weak. I want to join an organisiation that will better faciliate this, but if i join, I am commitng a mortal sin and am no longer welcome.

I can be forgiven for extortion rape and murder, but membership of this society means that I cannot be a friend of the Church anymore.

And thats fine. I will go and do all the good deeds that I can, and then when I die and God judes me I can finally eat at his table.

I believe Christianity is personal.
I don't believe you need churches, priests/pastors/reverends to tell you you are going to burn in hell for this or that.

I believe if there is a God, he will judge you in the end, and no matter how many acts of contrition you do, or deathbed penances', God knows and he will judge you accordingly.

'The kingdom of heaven is within you'.

Most organized religions are good, in that they instill a decent code of behaviour.

It is only when the 'if you don't do it my way, you'll burn in hell' and the 'my religion is right and yours is wrong' comes into play that I really get my panties in a bunch

IF there is a God, THEN he'll judge you by how you've lived your life, not how many ppl you convert, whether or not you went to church/confession or how much you tithe.

Tep · Post by **Tep** » 13 Feb 2007, 20:18

baron_samedi wrote:My faith wants me to be a good person and to better myself and protect the weak. I want to join an organisiation that will better faciliate this, but if i join, I am commitng a mortal sin and am no longer welcome.

I can be forgiven for extortion rape and murder, but membership of this society means that I cannot be a friend of the Church anymore.

And thats fine. I will go and do all the good deeds that I can, and then when I die and God judes me I can finally eat at his table.

This is the same God that killed his only son, that abandoded him to bleed and die with shame like a common criminal? Man that sucks

Well you can not eat at Gods table by good works alone this is not what the bible says it states (and this is my translation

) that basically you must belive in Jesus and what he did also in God if you need the exact verse I will look it up for you. I also apologize for i am a poor example of a christian for i do not read my bible nor do i get to attend church as much as i like for i have to work sunday mornings.

Also Jesus knew what he had to do. Read the Old Testimant, when ppl commited a sin they had to sacrifice a clean sheep, Jesus was sent as the ultimant sacrifice this is way he has the nick name Lamb of God also this is why he is referered to as a sheep and ect. many time in the new testimant

And God did not abandone his son, nor did God kill Jesus it was sin and ignorance that did. Jesus died so that we may live

Post by **Necrix** » 20 Feb 2007, 22:26

I prefer to think that every religion has something to offer. They each give us a different view point. We don't have to chose one. We won't die suddenly because we don't choose a religion.
Take what you will from each of them and live.
Be. Grow.
A religion is just a set of beliefs...a way of living. Choose your own.
As for the theist religions..I think they're all the same. Whether it be a religion that worships one being or many. With Christianity, it's 1...but some others worship several.
Some take it as they're right, and the others are wrong. I think that if there is ONE being, then neither are wrong..nor right. You could think that the polytheist religions are worshipping that ONE..just by it's seperate attributes.
The part of religion that becomes politics is when they think that they're right and the other religion is wrong and if someone doesn't think their way, then they don't like them. So..I don't think people should say that religion is just politics. If you accept it that way, then sure..it's that way in your head and you're just feeding that general thought. I think there's more "peer pressure" when it comes to religion than with drugs or anything else.
My question to them is "How the hell do you know?"
But..I'm getting off course..(psshtt..I was already when I started, I know).

People think of God as a being..but..maybe they're wrong?
It's not about who created what or who's in charge.
It's about what is and how things are going to be in this world if people keep on the way they are. Is it going to be good...or bad?
If you're "good" and do "good" and others have the same Religion..or..believe the same way you do..then "good" will happen. Things will be "good"(good put in quotes because the idea of "good" isn't the same with all..it was to prove a point).

Anyway..
I like to think that if God exists, then God(not he or she) is simply energy.
God is the world's cycle, everything as it is....and God isn't seperate from anything. God isn't A GOD. God is just everything. It's just a way of explaining things in a way that even the simplest of people could understand. In early times...everyone had a different religion..
They all had different thoughts of why things were..which is why, I think, every religion can be connected. They're all pointing towards the same thing..so how could they all NOT be alike in one way or another?

I don't think we should try to prove how things are that no one can prove anyway, in the end. In reality, we don't don't jack shit about such things. That's where science and everything else comes in. Religions teach us how to live, and science teaches us HOW things are.(note..not WHY things are)
There are laws of this world. We can say HOW gravity works..but not WHY it is as it is. Not WHY all of the other things in play when it comes to gravity are as they are. We can only explain how they work. You might say that we can explain WHY they work...but not WHY they exist.

Anyway..I should shutup. I'm sure I wrote enough to start a thousand debates x__x.

All-in-all..I'm just trying to say to keep an open mind. The pieces of it all may eventually fit together with knowledge...but you shouldn't try to force them together with the knowledge you do know...especially since, with things like this..we're extremely limited when it comes to what we actually know about it. Religions were made by man.

Later.

isapiens · Post by **isapiens** » 21 Feb 2007, 13:24

Being an ass i will not read these long posts and just assume that you have been talking about religion.

So ill just ruin everyones day and say that we are all gonna die and there is gonna be nothing afterwards. nothing. enjoy the rest of your lives. pz.

Post by **Necrix** » 21 Feb 2007, 13:32

isapiens wrote:Being an ass i will not read these long posts and just assume that you have been talking about religion.

So ill just ruin everyones day and say that we are all gonna die and there is gonna be nothing afterwards. nothing. enjoy the rest of your lives. pz.

works for me...lmao