Dragged from "general computing thread"
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@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently
- LaBlueGirl
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pseudo_opcode wrote:@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently
An IDE is useless if you don't know what you are doing in the first place.FrankB wrote:Mhh.. I am a beginner in Java but i know other Oo languages, so i have less difficult to understand what goes on ind Java's excellent IDE : Netbeans
--> http://www.netbeans.org/
You will find all the system & platform requirements there, which JavaRuntime you need, which version of application server etc..
Off course, you can learn a good grip on Java by coding everything from scratch in a simple editor, all you need is javac, the Java compiler and the runtime environment JRE.
But, you are warned, it takes a lot , really a lot of code for simple console programs.
( you will end with your own templates anyway, so opt for both the IDE and console programming
Also : documentation on Java is hard to find : most of the FAQs and documentation is incomplete, erroneous, old or too dense.
Good luck !
When learning a language, it's best to code from scratch until you have it fairly well memorized.
Once you get to that point, it is a matter of personal preference.
Since you know what you are doing already, an IDE saves time.
So I suppose it depends on how fast you wish to see results.
Some people like to code the 'old fashioned' way.
I agree with whoever said html/css isn't true 'coding':)
I also agree with Gogeta's idea of starting at the beginning.
S'what I did.
And BTW:
I still prefer writing stylesheets by 'hand'.
But if I am going to write a lot of crap for the internet, it'd make it a lot easier if all's I had to do was clickety-click.
Real programmers or hackers aren't determined by whether they code 'the long way' or the 'short way'.
Mu.
LBG
"Hey, Crash!
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
- FrankB
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A simple example is worth ten useles posts :LaBlueGirl wrote:pseudo_opcode wrote:@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differentlyAn IDE is useless if you don't know what you are doing in the first place.FrankB wrote:Mhh.. I am a beginner in Java but i know other Oo languages, so i have less difficult to understand what goes on ind Java's excellent IDE : Netbeans
--> http://www.netbeans.org/
You will find all the system & platform requirements there, which JavaRuntime you need, which version of application server etc..
Off course, you can learn a good grip on Java by coding everything from scratch in a simple editor, all you need is javac, the Java compiler and the runtime environment JRE.
But, you are warned, it takes a lot , really a lot of code for simple console programs.
( you will end with your own templates anyway, so opt for both the IDE and console programming
Also : documentation on Java is hard to find : most of the FAQs and documentation is incomplete, erroneous, old or too dense.
Good luck !
When learning a language, it's best to code from scratch until you have it fairly well memorized.
Code: Select all
package dbPackageMYSQL;
import java.io.Serializable;
import javax.persistence.Column;
import javax.persistence.Entity;
import javax.persistence.Id;
import javax.persistence.NamedQueries;
import javax.persistence.NamedQuery;
import javax.persistence.Table;
/**
* Entity class Login
*/
@Entity
@Table(name = "www_users")
@NamedQueries( {
@NamedQuery(name = "Login.findById", query = "SELECT l FROM Login l WHERE l.id = :id"),
})
public class Login implements Serializable {
@Id
@Column(name = "ID", nullable = false)
private Integer id;
public Login() {
}
public Login(Integer id) {
this.id = id;
}
public Integer getId() {
return this.id;
}
public void setId(Integer id) {
this.id = id;
}
@Override
public int hashCode() {
int hash = 0;
hash += (this.id != null ? this.id.hashCode() : 0);
return hash;
}
@Override
public boolean equals(Object object) {
if (!(object instanceof Login)) {
return false;
}
Login other = (Login)object;
if (this.id != other.id && (this.id == null || !this.id.equals(other.id))) return false;
return true;
}
@Override
public String toString() {
return "dbPackageMYSQL.Login[id=" + id + "]";
}
}
And this is just Java header info and a basic Java database recordset syntax to obtain 1, one record out of one database.
I hink only an idiot-savant types this in notepad..
LBG: if you read my post twice, i advise the OP to do both, from scratch & IDE. Anyway, when one learns a language, he *always* write things from scratch, just to get the basics of program flow and its own exceptions and error handling.LaBlueGirl wrote: Once you get to that point, it is a matter of personal preference.
Since you know what you are doing already, an IDE saves time.
So I suppose it depends on how fast you wish to see results.
Some people like to code the 'old fashioned' way.
And BTW:
I still prefer writing stylesheets by 'hand'.
But if I am going to write a lot of crap for the internet, it'd make it a lot easier if all's I had to do was clickety-click.
Writing from scratch or with an IDE has nothing to do with personal choice and fashion, it is all about efficieny and practical day to day maintenance.
That's true, very true.LaBlueGirl wrote:
Real programmers or hackers aren't determined by whether they code 'the long way' or the 'short way'.
LBG
IDE or from scratch, headers and libraries are always routine job, you cannot make the sample above more simple, you just can't, hacker or no hacker, Java is still Java.
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Right, but if I don't know wtf all that is or does, what good would an IDE be to me?FrankB wrote: A simple example is worth ten useles posts :Code: Select all
package dbPackageMYSQL; import java.io.Serializable; import javax.persistence.Column; import javax.persistence.Entity; import javax.persistence.Id; import javax.persistence.NamedQueries; import javax.persistence.NamedQuery; import javax.persistence.Table; /** * Entity class Login */ @Entity @Table(name = "www_users") @NamedQueries( { @NamedQuery(name = "Login.findById", query = "SELECT l FROM Login l WHERE l.id = :id"), }) public class Login implements Serializable { @Id @Column(name = "ID", nullable = false) private Integer id; public Login() { } public Login(Integer id) { this.id = id; } public Integer getId() { return this.id; } public void setId(Integer id) { this.id = id; } @Override public int hashCode() { int hash = 0; hash += (this.id != null ? this.id.hashCode() : 0); return hash; } @Override public boolean equals(Object object) { if (!(object instanceof Login)) { return false; } Login other = (Login)object; if (this.id != other.id && (this.id == null || !this.id.equals(other.id))) return false; return true; } @Override public String toString() { return "dbPackageMYSQL.Login[id=" + id + "]"; } }
S'pose I try and use an IDE, how will I know what comes next?
Well, you better.FrankB wrote:Now, do you think i am going to learn all this by heart ?
And this is just Java header info and a basic Java database recordset syntax to obtain 1, one record out of one database.
The fate of the entire universe rests on your Java skills, young Jedi.
(EVERYBODY PANIC!!)
lol
FrankB, if you read my post twice (then again, for good measure ) you'll see I included your pernt about both.FrankB wrote:I hink only an idiot-savant types this in notepad..LBG: if you read my post twice, i advise the OP to do both, from scratch & IDE. Anyway, when one learns a language, he *always* write things from scratch, just to get the basics of program flow and its own exceptions and error handling.LaBlueGirl wrote: Once you get to that point, it is a matter of personal preference.
Since you know what you are doing already, an IDE saves time.
So I suppose it depends on how fast you wish to see results.
Some people like to code the 'old fashioned' way.
And BTW:
I still prefer writing stylesheets by 'hand'.
But if I am going to write a lot of crap for the internet, it'd make it a lot easier if all's I had to do was clickety-click.
And once you've read my post, read it again.
For then and only then ye shall see:
I agree with you, lamewad LOL.
So wait, there is no free will involved with me choosing an IDE vs. hunt and peck????FrankB wrote:Writing from scratch or with an IDE has nothing to do with personal choice and fashion, it is all about efficieny and practical day to day maintenance.
That's true, very true.LaBlueGirl wrote:
Real programmers or hackers aren't determined by whether they code 'the long way' or the 'short way'.
LBG
IDE or from scratch, headers and libraries are always routine job, you cannot make the sample above more simple, you just can't, hacker or no hacker, Java is still Java.
Wow, I didn't know monarchies were so...deep
Who loves ya, baby!!
HAND!!!
"Hey, Crash!
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
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Because you are suposed to know what all that is and does, because you have at least read a book before choosing Java.LaBlueGirl wrote:Right, but if I don't know wtf all that is or does, what good would an IDE be to me?FrankB wrote: A simple example is worth ten useles posts :Code: Select all
package dbPackageMYSQL; import java.io.Serializable; import javax.persistence.Column; import javax.persistence.Entity; import javax.persistence.Id; import javax.persistence.NamedQueries; import javax.persistence.NamedQuery; import javax.persistence.Table; import moere shit.here.now;
And just .. well.. *because*, damnit !
And to talk me out of this awkward position : IDE's come with ready made examples and tutorials, how do you think i managed to code something in Cee Sharp (C#) tat vey lousy Sunday when it poured old wives outside ?
By looking at examples ( not written in notepad , though )LaBlueGirl wrote: S'pose I try and use an IDE, how will I know what comes next?
( i admit, Java doc, *sucks* ! )
Examples written by dozens of other people that were too lazy to code from scratch and programmed an IDE.
You all better panic, i am a Java nooobie !LaBlueGirl wrote:Well, you better.FrankB wrote:Now, do you think i am going to learn all this by heart ?
And this is just Java header info and a basic Java database recordset syntax to obtain 1, one record out of one database.
The fate of the entire universe rests on your Java skills, young Jedi.
(EVERYBODY PANIC!!)
lol
You sure i don't have to read it from right to left also ?LaBlueGirl wrote:FrankB, if you read my post twice (then again, for good measure ) you'll see I included your pernt about both.FrankB wrote:I hink only an idiot-savant types this in notepad..
LBG: if you read my post twice, i advise the OP to do both, from scratch & IDE. Anyway, when one learns a language, he *always* write things from scratch, just to get the basics of program flow and its own exceptions and error handling.
And once you've read my post, read it again.
For then and only then ye shall see:
I agree with you, lamewad LOL.
You never know women on *that* time of the month
No, IDE's are the Dark force, you are immediately overwhelmed by them, then you start to write bad software at the rate a bunny replicates itself, like in Australie, bad bad bad.LaBlueGirl wrote:So wait, there is no free will involved with me choosing an IDE vs. hunt and peck????FrankB wrote:Writing from scratch or with an IDE has nothing to do with personal choice and fashion, it is all about efficieny and practical day to day maintenance.
That's true, very true.LaBlueGirl wrote:
Real programmers or hackers aren't determined by whether they code 'the long way' or the 'short way'.
LBG
IDE or from scratch, headers and libraries are always routine job, you cannot make the sample above more simple, you just can't, hacker or no hacker, Java is still Java.
Archetypes still rule.LaBlueGirl wrote: Wow, I didn't know monarchies were so...deep
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Severly rimmed
Well, that was my point!!!!FrankB wrote: Because you are suposed to know what all that is and does, because you have at least read a book before choosing Java.
And just .. well.. *because*, damnit !
And to talk me out of this awkward position : IDE's come with ready made examples and tutorials, how do you think i managed to code something in Cee Sharp (C#) tat vey lousy Sunday when it poured old wives outside ?
Using an IDE only makes sense if you know what you are doing in the first frikkin' place!
Really, darling.
The tuts that come with the IDE you have explain from ground-up how Java works?
Don't think so, nope
And bitchy women aside, I'm still cooler than yooouuuu...
IKYABWAI!!!!11!!!!FrankB wrote: By looking at examples ( not written in notepad , though )
( i admit, Java doc, *sucks* ! )
Examples written by dozens of other people that were too lazy to code from scratch and programmed an IDE.
(begin fretting)FrankB wrote:You sure i don't have to read it from right to left also ?
You never know women on *that* time of the month
Aack!
The secret's out!!!!
(end fretting)
I write Java in notepad, too
What if I get a green midget who uses bad grammar to teach me The Way of the Notepad?FrankB wrote:No, IDE's are the Dark force, you are immediately overwhelmed by them, then you start to write bad software at the rate a bunny replicates itself, like in Australie, bad bad bad.
Would I still be consigned to the dark reproducing bunny-fate????
Sounds like an 80's metal song!!FrankB wrote:Archetypes still rule.
"Hey, Crash!
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
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- cyber messiah
- Posts: 1201
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I see things are turning java specific
If i say suppose black hats are good with exploits and all and whitehats are good in low level stuff for e.g. assembly
If i do assembly does that mean i m white hat or if i do exploits does that mean i m black hat.
Look at the purpose of both of them black hats->damage, whitehats->finding vulnerabilities
so obviously they do what will helps solving their purpose, but does that mean that whithats dont do exploits or blackhats dont know low level stuff.
Pro work in teams on huge projects, their work demands the use of IDEs and hackers usually wont code 100mb code all alone
Basic routines are needed by everyone but sometimes more specialized functions need to be coded as no one makes libraries for hackers, they need to code their own stuff, *usually* we use standard ANSI stuff, and maybe unix socket libraries, pointers are our best friends, so forget java.
And inline assembly is like steroids.
But hey that doesnt mean i m a hacker since anyone can code that in any high level language... even with java using using libraries and IDEs
Anyway i did a small test, i wrote "hello world" program in C++ and assembly, compared their sizes
C++ had 4 lines of code
assembly had 11-12 lines of code
EXE by C++ was 22kb large
EXE by assembly was *8bytes*
that was just for a single output on screen, if things get more complicated the ratio would increase. And for a keylogger the size would be crucial, since i will be binding it to any pic or something.
The more libraries you use the size of the final executable will keep on growing due to linking. Assembly programs are faster(Although some may argue that 'modern' compilers are faster than ever)
But can you use assembly for huge programs?? Noway!!! Will i use assembly for exploits?Again no, but i did mention about inline assembly.
Did anyone understand the difference between coding practices of programmers and hackers?
Lets take another point of view
i know a lot of people may disagree but whatever...
a programmer is coding a software, he has clearly defined goals, he's getting paid for that. Now everyone including me will take the easiest way to do the work, using IDE is one of them.
Now a hacker, no one is paying him, he's not coding coz anyone is paying him to do so, he doesnt have to make his code compatible with other machines, operating systems, environments or whatever. No one is paying him why is he doing so much hardwork? Cause he wants to be proud of himself, no matter whether white or black hat, everyhacker wants to be powerful. This is reflected in coding practices
So i m not trying to distinguish programmers and hackers on the basis of their code
Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.FrankB wrote: LBG: if you read my post twice, i advise the OP to do both, from scratch & IDE. Anyway, when one learns a language, he *always* write things from scratch, just to get the basics of program flow and its own exceptions and error handling.
Writing from scratch or with an IDE has nothing to do with personal choice and fashion, it is all about efficieny and practical day to day maintenance.
That's true, very true.LaBlueGirl wrote:
Real programmers or hackers aren't determined by whether they code 'the long way' or the 'short way'.
LBG
IDE or from scratch, headers and libraries are always routine job, you cannot make the sample above more simple, you just can't, hacker or no hacker, Java is still Java.
If i say suppose black hats are good with exploits and all and whitehats are good in low level stuff for e.g. assembly
If i do assembly does that mean i m white hat or if i do exploits does that mean i m black hat.
Look at the purpose of both of them black hats->damage, whitehats->finding vulnerabilities
so obviously they do what will helps solving their purpose, but does that mean that whithats dont do exploits or blackhats dont know low level stuff.
Pro work in teams on huge projects, their work demands the use of IDEs and hackers usually wont code 100mb code all alone
Basic routines are needed by everyone but sometimes more specialized functions need to be coded as no one makes libraries for hackers, they need to code their own stuff, *usually* we use standard ANSI stuff, and maybe unix socket libraries, pointers are our best friends, so forget java.
And inline assembly is like steroids.
i m one of those, i know those sweet early days when we used to code keyloggers in pure assembly, we never felt any need for libraries or IDEs, registers, interrupts and RAM were all we needed.FrankB wrote:I hink only an idiot-savant types this in notepad..
But hey that doesnt mean i m a hacker since anyone can code that in any high level language... even with java using using libraries and IDEs
Anyway i did a small test, i wrote "hello world" program in C++ and assembly, compared their sizes
C++ had 4 lines of code
assembly had 11-12 lines of code
EXE by C++ was 22kb large
EXE by assembly was *8bytes*
that was just for a single output on screen, if things get more complicated the ratio would increase. And for a keylogger the size would be crucial, since i will be binding it to any pic or something.
The more libraries you use the size of the final executable will keep on growing due to linking. Assembly programs are faster(Although some may argue that 'modern' compilers are faster than ever)
But can you use assembly for huge programs?? Noway!!! Will i use assembly for exploits?Again no, but i did mention about inline assembly.
Did anyone understand the difference between coding practices of programmers and hackers?
Lets take another point of view
i know a lot of people may disagree but whatever...
a programmer is coding a software, he has clearly defined goals, he's getting paid for that. Now everyone including me will take the easiest way to do the work, using IDE is one of them.
Now a hacker, no one is paying him, he's not coding coz anyone is paying him to do so, he doesnt have to make his code compatible with other machines, operating systems, environments or whatever. No one is paying him why is he doing so much hardwork? Cause he wants to be proud of himself, no matter whether white or black hat, everyhacker wants to be powerful. This is reflected in coding practices
So i m not trying to distinguish programmers and hackers on the basis of their code
Last edited by pseudo_opcode on 11 Feb 2007, 14:54, edited 1 time in total.
- FrankB
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Re: Severly rimmed
OT:
LOL!LaBlueGirl wrote:What if I get a green midget who uses bad grammar to teach me The Way of the Notepad?FrankB wrote:No, IDE's are the Dark force, you are immediately overwhelmed by them, then you start to write bad software at the rate a bunny replicates itself, like in Australie, bad bad bad.
Yeah, green midgets as like hack3rs that code differently at home, come out of their dark closets at night to slurp your virginal CPU. That's what happens if you.., well *if*. There's no better than *iffing* upset menstrual women.LaBlueGirl wrote: Would I still be consigned to the dark reproducing bunny-fate????
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"Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:50 am Post subject:pseudo_opcode wrote:I see things are turning java specific
Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.
@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently
_________________
"Stay foolish, Stay hungry"-Steve Jobs"
The last sentence fragment. Starts with 'and professionals and hackers (at their home)' and ends with 'code differently'.
LBG
"Hey, Crash!
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
- LaBlueGirl
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Re: Severly rimmed
Damn....FrankB wrote:OT:
Yeah, green midgets as like hack3rs that code differently at home, come out of their dark closets at night to slurp your virginal CPU. That's what happens if you.., well *if*. There's no better than *iffing* upset menstrual women.LaBlueGirl wrote: Would I still be consigned to the dark reproducing bunny-fate????
Well, they won't have any luck....
My CPU's been around the block a few times.
Besides, hentai this ain't
But if I sleep with my monitor on, will that attract the Notepad Gnomes?
Hmmm..
Methinks you ascribe too much power to the Iffing Green Jedi Notepad Gnome Hackers.
"Hey, Crash!
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
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- cyber messiah
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yes they do but its not basis of their classification, you forgot to read whats after thatLaBlueGirl wrote:"Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:50 am Post subject:pseudo_opcode wrote:I see things are turning java specific
Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.
@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently
_________________
"Stay foolish, Stay hungry"-Steve Jobs"
The last sentence fragment. Starts with 'and professionals and hackers (at their home)' and ends with 'code differently'.
LBG
- LaBlueGirl
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This is what Frank said.pseudo_opcode wrote:I see things are turning java specific
Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.
It gets tiresome switching sessions, so he asked I throw this into the mix for him:
The last messiah was misunderstood, and he was nailed to a cross.
With a pink hat.
Hey!! (this is me, LBG)
If ya'll have colored hats, can mine be pink, too?
Can I have it in a fez, or no?
Okies, movie time!!!
"Hey, Crash!
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
- LaBlueGirl
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Umm, no.pseudo_opcode wrote:yes they do but its not basis of their classification, you forgot to read whats after thatLaBlueGirl wrote:"Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:50 am Post subject:pseudo_opcode wrote:I see things are turning java specific
Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.
@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently
_________________
"Stay foolish, Stay hungry"-Steve Jobs"
The last sentence fragment. Starts with 'and professionals and hackers (at their home)' and ends with 'code differently'.
LBG
That was your entire post...
"Hey, Crash!
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
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- cyber messiah
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- LaBlueGirl
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No, they don't. At least if they ALL do, as you've stated, (which I don't believe, where's the proof for such a broad generalization?), I never said how a person codes in their home is the basis for ascribing a colored hat.pseudo_opcode wrote:yes they do but its not basis of their classification, you forgot to read whats after thatLaBlueGirl wrote:"Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:50 am Post subject:pseudo_opcode wrote:I see things are turning java specific
Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.
@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently
_________________
"Stay foolish, Stay hungry"-Steve Jobs"
The last sentence fragment. Starts with 'and professionals and hackers (at their home)' and ends with 'code differently'.
LBG
Frank said he used an IDE.
You say 'real' hackers code differently.
Therefore, you are not so subtly inferring the person in question is not a real hacker.
You were the one who ascribed a hat preference (or even if they deem it necessary to wear a hat in the first place) by whether or not a person uses an IDE.
Yawn.
Good night!
LBG
"Hey, Crash!
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR
Ever tried walking with no legs?
It's real slow!"
~Crunch, Crash Bandicoot TTR