Dragged from "general computing thread"

[pseudo_opcode]

@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently

[LaBlueGirl]

@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently

Mhh.. I am a beginner in Java but i know other Oo languages, so i have less difficult to understand what goes on ind Java's excellent IDE : Netbeans
--> http://www.netbeans.org/

You will find all the system & platform requirements there, which JavaRuntime you need, which version of application server etc..

Off course, you can learn a good grip on Java by coding everything from scratch in a simple editor, all you need is javac, the Java compiler and the runtime environment JRE.
But, you are warned, it takes a lot , really a lot of code for simple console programs.
( you will end with your own templates anyway, so opt for both the IDE and console programming

Also : documentation on Java is hard to find : most of the FAQs and documentation is incomplete, erroneous, old or too dense.


Good luck !

An IDE is useless if you don't know what you are doing in the first place.
When learning a language, it's best to code from scratch until you have it fairly well memorized.
Once you get to that point, it is a matter of personal preference.
Since you know what you are doing already, an IDE saves time.
So I suppose it depends on how fast you wish to see results.

Some people like to code the 'old fashioned' way.

I agree with whoever said html/css isn't true 'coding':)

I also agree with Gogeta's idea of starting at the beginning.
S'what I did.

And BTW:
I still prefer writing stylesheets by 'hand'.
But if I am going to write a lot of crap for the internet, it'd make it a lot easier if all's I had to do was clickety-click.

Real programmers or hackers aren't determined by whether they code 'the long way' or the 'short way'.

Mu.

LBG

[FrankB]

@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently

Mhh.. I am a beginner in Java but i know other Oo languages, so i have less difficult to understand what goes on ind Java's excellent IDE : Netbeans
--> http://www.netbeans.org/

You will find all the system & platform requirements there, which JavaRuntime you need, which version of application server etc..

Off course, you can learn a good grip on Java by coding everything from scratch in a simple editor, all you need is javac, the Java compiler and the runtime environment JRE.
But, you are warned, it takes a lot , really a lot of code for simple console programs.
( you will end with your own templates anyway, so opt for both the IDE and console programming

Also : documentation on Java is hard to find : most of the FAQs and documentation is incomplete, erroneous, old or too dense.


Good luck !

An IDE is useless if you don't know what you are doing in the first place.
When learning a language, it's best to code from scratch until you have it fairly well memorized.

A simple example is worth ten useles posts :

Code: Select all

package dbPackageMYSQL;

import java.io.Serializable;
import javax.persistence.Column;
import javax.persistence.Entity;
import javax.persistence.Id;
import javax.persistence.NamedQueries;
import javax.persistence.NamedQuery;
import javax.persistence.Table;

/**
 * Entity class Login
*/

@Entity
@Table(name = "www_users")
@NamedQueries( {
        @NamedQuery(name = "Login.findById", query = "SELECT l FROM Login l WHERE l.id = :id"),
    })
public class Login implements Serializable {
    @Id
    @Column(name = "ID", nullable = false)
    private Integer id;
   
    public Login() {
    }
    public Login(Integer id) {
        this.id = id;
    }
    public Integer getId() {
        return this.id;
    }
    public void setId(Integer id) {
        this.id = id;
    }
    
    @Override
    public int hashCode() {
        int hash = 0;
        hash += (this.id != null ? this.id.hashCode() : 0);
        return hash;
    }

    @Override
    public boolean equals(Object object) {
        if (!(object instanceof Login)) {
            return false;
        }
        Login other = (Login)object;
        if (this.id != other.id && (this.id == null || !this.id.equals(other.id)))   return false;
        return true;
    }
    @Override
    public String toString() {
        return "dbPackageMYSQL.Login[id=" + id + "]";
    }
    
}

Now, do you think i am going to learn all this by heart ?
And this is just Java header info and a basic Java database recordset syntax to obtain 1, one record out of one database.

I hink only an idiot-savant types this in notepad..

Once you get to that point, it is a matter of personal preference.
Since you know what you are doing already, an IDE saves time.
So I suppose it depends on how fast you wish to see results.

Some people like to code the 'old fashioned' way.

And BTW:
I still prefer writing stylesheets by 'hand'.
But if I am going to write a lot of crap for the internet, it'd make it a lot easier if all's I had to do was clickety-click.

LBG: if you read my post twice, i advise the OP to do both, from scratch & IDE. Anyway, when one learns a language, he *always* write things from scratch, just to get the basics of program flow and its own exceptions and error handling.

Writing from scratch or with an IDE has nothing to do with personal choice and fashion, it is all about efficieny and practical day to day maintenance.

Real programmers or hackers aren't determined by whether they code 'the long way' or the 'short way'.
LBG

That's true, very true.
IDE or from scratch, headers and libraries are always routine job, you cannot make the sample above more simple, you just can't, hacker or no hacker, Java is still Java.

[LaBlueGirl]

A simple example is worth ten useles posts :

Code: Select all

package dbPackageMYSQL;

import java.io.Serializable;
import javax.persistence.Column;
import javax.persistence.Entity;
import javax.persistence.Id;
import javax.persistence.NamedQueries;
import javax.persistence.NamedQuery;
import javax.persistence.Table;

/**
 * Entity class Login
*/

@Entity
@Table(name = "www_users")
@NamedQueries( {
        @NamedQuery(name = "Login.findById", query = "SELECT l FROM Login l WHERE l.id = :id"),
    })
public class Login implements Serializable {
    @Id
    @Column(name = "ID", nullable = false)
    private Integer id;
   
    public Login() {
    }
    public Login(Integer id) {
        this.id = id;
    }
    public Integer getId() {
        return this.id;
    }
    public void setId(Integer id) {
        this.id = id;
    }
    
    @Override
    public int hashCode() {
        int hash = 0;
        hash += (this.id != null ? this.id.hashCode() : 0);
        return hash;
    }

    @Override
    public boolean equals(Object object) {
        if (!(object instanceof Login)) {
            return false;
        }
        Login other = (Login)object;
        if (this.id != other.id && (this.id == null || !this.id.equals(other.id)))   return false;
        return true;
    }
    @Override
    public String toString() {
        return "dbPackageMYSQL.Login[id=" + id + "]";
    }
    
}

Right, but if I don't know wtf all that is or does, what good would an IDE be to me?
S'pose I try and use an IDE, how will I know what comes next?

Now, do you think i am going to learn all this by heart ?
And this is just Java header info and a basic Java database recordset syntax to obtain 1, one record out of one database.

Well, you better.
The fate of the entire universe rests on your Java skills, young Jedi.
(EVERYBODY PANIC!!)
lol

I hink only an idiot-savant types this in notepad..

Once you get to that point, it is a matter of personal preference.
Since you know what you are doing already, an IDE saves time.
So I suppose it depends on how fast you wish to see results.

Some people like to code the 'old fashioned' way.

And BTW:
I still prefer writing stylesheets by 'hand'.
But if I am going to write a lot of crap for the internet, it'd make it a lot easier if all's I had to do was clickety-click.

LBG: if you read my post twice, i advise the OP to do both, from scratch & IDE. Anyway, when one learns a language, he *always* write things from scratch, just to get the basics of program flow and its own exceptions and error handling.

FrankB, if you read my post twice (then again, for good measure ) you'll see I included your pernt about both.
And once you've read my post, read it again.
For then and only then ye shall see:
I agree with you, lamewad LOL.

Writing from scratch or with an IDE has nothing to do with personal choice and fashion, it is all about efficieny and practical day to day maintenance.

Real programmers or hackers aren't determined by whether they code 'the long way' or the 'short way'.
LBG

That's true, very true.
IDE or from scratch, headers and libraries are always routine job, you cannot make the sample above more simple, you just can't, hacker or no hacker, Java is still Java.

So wait, there is no free will involved with me choosing an IDE vs. hunt and peck????
Wow, I didn't know monarchies were so...deep

Who loves ya, baby!!

HAND!!!

[FrankB]

A simple example is worth ten useles posts :

Code: Select all

package dbPackageMYSQL;

import java.io.Serializable;
import javax.persistence.Column;
import javax.persistence.Entity;
import javax.persistence.Id;
import javax.persistence.NamedQueries;
import javax.persistence.NamedQuery;
import javax.persistence.Table;

import moere shit.here.now;

Right, but if I don't know wtf all that is or does, what good would an IDE be to me?

Because you are suposed to know what all that is and does, because you have at least read a book before choosing Java.
And just .. well.. *because*, damnit !

And to talk me out of this awkward position : IDE's come with ready made examples and tutorials, how do you think i managed to code something in Cee Sharp (C#) tat vey lousy Sunday when it poured old wives outside ?

S'pose I try and use an IDE, how will I know what comes next?

By looking at examples ( not written in notepad , though )
( i admit, Java doc, *sucks* ! )
Examples written by dozens of other people that were too lazy to code from scratch and programmed an IDE.

Now, do you think i am going to learn all this by heart ?
And this is just Java header info and a basic Java database recordset syntax to obtain 1, one record out of one database.

Well, you better.
The fate of the entire universe rests on your Java skills, young Jedi.
(EVERYBODY PANIC!!)
lol

You all better panic, i am a Java nooobie !

I hink only an idiot-savant types this in notepad..

LBG: if you read my post twice, i advise the OP to do both, from scratch & IDE. Anyway, when one learns a language, he *always* write things from scratch, just to get the basics of program flow and its own exceptions and error handling.

FrankB, if you read my post twice (then again, for good measure ) you'll see I included your pernt about both.
And once you've read my post, read it again.
For then and only then ye shall see:
I agree with you, lamewad LOL.

You sure i don't have to read it from right to left also ?
You never know women on *that* time of the month

Writing from scratch or with an IDE has nothing to do with personal choice and fashion, it is all about efficieny and practical day to day maintenance.

Real programmers or hackers aren't determined by whether they code 'the long way' or the 'short way'.
LBG

That's true, very true.
IDE or from scratch, headers and libraries are always routine job, you cannot make the sample above more simple, you just can't, hacker or no hacker, Java is still Java.

So wait, there is no free will involved with me choosing an IDE vs. hunt and peck????

No, IDE's are the Dark force, you are immediately overwhelmed by them, then you start to write bad software at the rate a bunny replicates itself, like in Australie, bad bad bad.

Wow, I didn't know monarchies were so...deep

Archetypes still rule.

[LaBlueGirl]

Because you are suposed to know what all that is and does, because you have at least read a book before choosing Java.
And just .. well.. *because*, damnit !

And to talk me out of this awkward position : IDE's come with ready made examples and tutorials, how do you think i managed to code something in Cee Sharp (C#) tat vey lousy Sunday when it poured old wives outside ?

Well, that was my point!!!!
Using an IDE only makes sense if you know what you are doing in the first frikkin' place!

Really, darling.
The tuts that come with the IDE you have explain from ground-up how Java works?
Don't think so, nope

And bitchy women aside, I'm still cooler than yooouuuu...

By looking at examples ( not written in notepad , though )
( i admit, Java doc, *sucks* ! )
Examples written by dozens of other people that were too lazy to code from scratch and programmed an IDE.

IKYABWAI!!!!11!!!!

You sure i don't have to read it from right to left also ?
You never know women on *that* time of the month

(begin fretting)
Aack!
The secret's out!!!!
(end fretting)

I write Java in notepad, too

No, IDE's are the Dark force, you are immediately overwhelmed by them, then you start to write bad software at the rate a bunny replicates itself, like in Australie, bad bad bad.

What if I get a green midget who uses bad grammar to teach me The Way of the Notepad?

Would I still be consigned to the dark reproducing bunny-fate????

Archetypes still rule.

Sounds like an 80's metal song!!

[pseudo_opcode]

I see things are turning java specific

LBG: if you read my post twice, i advise the OP to do both, from scratch & IDE. Anyway, when one learns a language, he *always* write things from scratch, just to get the basics of program flow and its own exceptions and error handling.

Writing from scratch or with an IDE has nothing to do with personal choice and fashion, it is all about efficieny and practical day to day maintenance.

Real programmers or hackers aren't determined by whether they code 'the long way' or the 'short way'.
LBG

That's true, very true.
IDE or from scratch, headers and libraries are always routine job, you cannot make the sample above more simple, you just can't, hacker or no hacker, Java is still Java.

Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.

If i say suppose black hats are good with exploits and all and whitehats are good in low level stuff for e.g. assembly

If i do assembly does that mean i m white hat or if i do exploits does that mean i m black hat.

Look at the purpose of both of them black hats->damage, whitehats->finding vulnerabilities
so obviously they do what will helps solving their purpose, but does that mean that whithats dont do exploits or blackhats dont know low level stuff.

Pro work in teams on huge projects, their work demands the use of IDEs and hackers usually wont code 100mb code all alone
Basic routines are needed by everyone but sometimes more specialized functions need to be coded as no one makes libraries for hackers, they need to code their own stuff, *usually* we use standard ANSI stuff, and maybe unix socket libraries, pointers are our best friends, so forget java.
And inline assembly is like steroids.

I hink only an idiot-savant types this in notepad..

i m one of those, i know those sweet early days when we used to code keyloggers in pure assembly, we never felt any need for libraries or IDEs, registers, interrupts and RAM were all we needed.

But hey that doesnt mean i m a hacker since anyone can code that in any high level language... even with java using using libraries and IDEs


Anyway i did a small test, i wrote "hello world" program in C++ and assembly, compared their sizes
C++ had 4 lines of code
assembly had 11-12 lines of code

EXE by C++ was 22kb large
EXE by assembly was *8bytes*

that was just for a single output on screen, if things get more complicated the ratio would increase. And for a keylogger the size would be crucial, since i will be binding it to any pic or something.
The more libraries you use the size of the final executable will keep on growing due to linking. Assembly programs are faster(Although some may argue that 'modern' compilers are faster than ever)

But can you use assembly for huge programs?? Noway!!! Will i use assembly for exploits?Again no, but i did mention about inline assembly.

Did anyone understand the difference between coding practices of programmers and hackers?

Lets take another point of view
i know a lot of people may disagree but whatever...
a programmer is coding a software, he has clearly defined goals, he's getting paid for that. Now everyone including me will take the easiest way to do the work, using IDE is one of them.
Now a hacker, no one is paying him, he's not coding coz anyone is paying him to do so, he doesnt have to make his code compatible with other machines, operating systems, environments or whatever. No one is paying him why is he doing so much hardwork? Cause he wants to be proud of himself, no matter whether white or black hat, everyhacker wants to be powerful. This is reflected in coding practices

So i m not trying to distinguish programmers and hackers on the basis of their code

[FrankB]

OT:

No, IDE's are the Dark force, you are immediately overwhelmed by them, then you start to write bad software at the rate a bunny replicates itself, like in Australie, bad bad bad.

What if I get a green midget who uses bad grammar to teach me The Way of the Notepad?

LOL!

Would I still be consigned to the dark reproducing bunny-fate????

Yeah, green midgets as like hack3rs that code differently at home, come out of their dark closets at night to slurp your virginal CPU. That's what happens if you.., well *if*. There's no better than *iffing* upset menstrual women.

[LaBlueGirl]

I see things are turning java specific


Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.

"Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:50 am Post subject:

@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently
_________________
"Stay foolish, Stay hungry"-Steve Jobs"

The last sentence fragment. Starts with 'and professionals and hackers (at their home)' and ends with 'code differently'.

LBG

[LaBlueGirl]

OT:

Would I still be consigned to the dark reproducing bunny-fate????

Yeah, green midgets as like hack3rs that code differently at home, come out of their dark closets at night to slurp your virginal CPU. That's what happens if you.., well *if*. There's no better than *iffing* upset menstrual women.

Damn....

Well, they won't have any luck....
My CPU's been around the block a few times.
Besides, hentai this ain't

But if I sleep with my monitor on, will that attract the Notepad Gnomes?
Hmmm..
Methinks you ascribe too much power to the Iffing Green Jedi Notepad Gnome Hackers.

[pseudo_opcode]

I see things are turning java specific


Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.

"Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:50 am Post subject:

@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently
_________________
"Stay foolish, Stay hungry"-Steve Jobs"

The last sentence fragment. Starts with 'and professionals and hackers (at their home)' and ends with 'code differently'.

LBG

yes they do but its not basis of their classification, you forgot to read whats after that

[LaBlueGirl]

I see things are turning java specific



Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.

This is what Frank said.
It gets tiresome switching sessions, so he asked I throw this into the mix for him:

The last messiah was misunderstood, and he was nailed to a cross.
With a pink hat.

Hey!! (this is me, LBG)
If ya'll have colored hats, can mine be pink, too?
Can I have it in a fez, or no?

Okies, movie time!!!

[LaBlueGirl]

I see things are turning java specific


Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.

"Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:50 am Post subject:

@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently
_________________
"Stay foolish, Stay hungry"-Steve Jobs"

The last sentence fragment. Starts with 'and professionals and hackers (at their home)' and ends with 'code differently'.

LBG

yes they do but its not basis of their classification, you forgot to read whats after that

Umm, no.

That was your entire post...

[pseudo_opcode]

Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.

I was talking about this post

[LaBlueGirl]

I see things are turning java specific


Why do people alsways misinterpret me? I never meant you are a hacker or a pro programmer by the way you code.

"Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:50 am Post subject:

@FrankB and RNA, IDE and other library stuff comes in when we're working for a software company or working with a team to develop a software or something, this dude is talking about learning programming, he should better start with the basics, and professionals and hackers(at their home) code differently
_________________
"Stay foolish, Stay hungry"-Steve Jobs"

The last sentence fragment. Starts with 'and professionals and hackers (at their home)' and ends with 'code differently'.

LBG

yes they do but its not basis of their classification, you forgot to read whats after that

No, they don't. At least if they ALL do, as you've stated, (which I don't believe, where's the proof for such a broad generalization?), I never said how a person codes in their home is the basis for ascribing a colored hat.

Frank said he used an IDE.
You say 'real' hackers code differently.
Therefore, you are not so subtly inferring the person in question is not a real hacker.
You were the one who ascribed a hat preference (or even if they deem it necessary to wear a hat in the first place) by whether or not a person uses an IDE.

Yawn.

Good night!

LBG