[Continuation][HOT] Programming Languages

[ebrizzlez]

wow. I guess I came back pretty late. I felt like a whole war just went down, and I didn't bother to read the rest I just scrolled down and hit reply.

There is something called respect, and G-brain, you've been attacking every admin/mod you possibly could. Thats a graved level of disrespect, normally I would've just kept on moving along and ignored a post, but I have a feeling your purposly called admins to this topic to try to demean there level of intelligence, for even b_b was attacked with your sharp criticism. Its kinda late at night, not in the mood.

One thing you learn from forums is, EVERYONE has their own opinion and is entitled towards that. BUT, we shouldn't attack everyone's own opinion cause they don't agree.

Perl, Delphi, C, C++, Ruby , Assembly, Brainfuck, php, EVEN Visual Basic are all great languages imo, cause there made by great people. If you have enough time to consider how much work is put into these languages, you would actually appericiate it. Cause if someone asks you to build a forum from scratch, don't try to look for C for your answer, because PHP is ohsougly, it gets the job done, and thats what should matter.

This topic should be locked. I think the user got what he wanted.

A free show.

[ayu]

I still see some life in this topic, and will keep it opened today as well, then I'll lock it. I think that if there still are some opinions that someone wants to spill out about programming languages, then go ahead, the scene is still open ^^

If these two threads are to be deleted or not, is something that will be discussed among staff.

Anyway, if any staff member disagrees with my actions, then lock this thread, but I would appreciate if you would PM me about it.

[pseudo_opcode]

OOPS(no pun intended), i missed the hot discussion, damn, if you guys still listening,

@G-Brain,
Dude you know too much for an average 16 year old,its cool, maybe you are smarter than most people of your age, that does not give you right to disrespect experienced members, though i m 21 and dont know exactly how how old is DNR, but i know he's around b_b's age, that automatically tells me that he's more experienced than me, back in 87 when i was born, he probably was already playing with computers.

I like DNR, i have read his posts and they interest me, and sometimes motivate me, and i never feel that he went offtopic, even if he did, it was a good reading.

This question had been asked so many times, one can search the forum and find the answers, and still if something is left unanswered he can always put up a question. So getting offtopic isnt something that should be really bothering you or the person who asked the question

And about programming languages,
its all about roles,
A hacker is very generic term, and someone claiming he's a hacker and doesnt know how to program, thats strange,
the beginners as far as i know, they learn things like XSS, sql injections, buffer overflows, remote file inclusions,
Now how can you expect to understand them, if you dont even have basic understanding of code(the guy wants to start learning coding)

Fortran is good for scientific applications

Java is good for multiplatform applications, but its slow, dont go into bits and bites processor pipelining principles and bit level dissection of JVM, i m just talking about user experience, those azureus users might agree with me, if you use IDEs, aptana is a bitch, and perfect example of a java app that pisses me off. Had it been in say, Visual C++, it would have been my Favourite IDE, But thats me, not everyone may think so, neither do i try to impose my thinking on anyone by telling him, dont learn java.

However having said all that, i have a project ( for blockshopper.com since you're so interested in details) implementation of skype protocol, since the skype is not opensource and they are very 'possessive' about their protocol its very hard to reverse engineer it(it has been done by some chinese guy or group), as the server interaction uses 1024 bit encryption using public and private key, skype recently released their API, that was in several languages, but i had to chose Java, since me and my team found that Java API is implemented well and will work on mac/linux/windows beautifully. Now a little performance lag is acceptable to the client but he doesnt really want to invest more time and money in this project just to get it a bit faster.

Despite i hate java, we had to complete the project, its creating our own application which supports skype, and works on hardware limited mobile devices such as Amazon kindle,

This brings a very good point, the amazon kindle has only a browser, it does not support java, and again we 'hacked' it so that our application will work on it, without Java!, yes, you see, in the same project.

Now thats professional stuff, during my fun time i wanna crack ths application and write say a keygen for a friend, i fire up my ollydebug, and i have all the code there in front of me, in assembly, i have to figure out what dlls are being called and what apis are being used, i have two concepts here, one is assembly, the basic knowledge, hexadecimal, binary number systems, and other is about windows API, now what do you say, what language is best for hacking? or taking someone to next level.

Cross site scripting, cookie stealing, you have javascript, can anyone XSS with php, C++? i dont think so, so wanna take hacking to next level, what language do i learn?

Come to buffer overflows, again you need assembly, you cant do without it, but again you wont really think of whacking the stack with pure assembly exploit? why? isnt it possible? yes it is, but why then? why do you chose C or C++, why dont you chose java? to make the exploit(before you say, java dont have possibility of buffer overflows)
What do i langauge do i learn to take hacking to a next level?

You're are good at lisp, and possibly prolog, i've learnt prolog but only because it was in my curriculum so i was forced to and i never had any interest, so its as good as not knowing it, and i know shit about lisp, but all i know is that its very good for AI, well i think i m not that bad,as a hacker, but i never felt the need for any of those languages,

I know Perl, PHP, Java, Javascript for professional stuff
Assembly, C/C++ for my 'spare time',

i dont feel the need for any more language, and i am yet to encounter a situation where i feel that i should learn a new programming language, maybe if i was in AI and stuff i would need something like prolog, but i m never gonna go into AI, even if i do, i would learn it then. why bother now?Similarly if i had to do something related to scientific researches, i would use fortran.


You see my point here, i learnt languages suited to my roll, neither do i say that only XYZ is good for start, nor do i say every language is same so learn whatever you like.

And this is what you said, the two of you(G-Brain and Ebriz), i havent told you anything you dont know, i just supported what you guys have already said.

DNR's wasnt really offtopic if you try to understand, someone says he's hacker and says he wants to learn coding to take it to next level, well its just how you interpret it, next level what is it?
What good would coding do if you dont have the curiousity to know how things work under the hood, how can you make them work they way you want if you dont even know how it works, apart from coding, how about networking? cryptography? arent they related to hacking? yes they are but still its your brain, your big bad brain( ) which can take you to next level, coding and all are just weapons in your arsenal, you need a good eye to spot the target and you need to analyze his strengths and weakness, the right timing and then pull the trigger, which is all done by your brain. Thats, as important as your weapon, your gun, both of them(weapon and brain) can be deadly together, but absence of either of them makes the other useless. You can get your weapon if you have good brain but a weapon cant bring you intelligence or the skills unless you work on them, that was how i interpreted DNR's post, that was his point to me. and it makes sense, its sad to see how you questioned his abilities, he's a very senior member and you should learn to respect him even if think you know more than him(personally i dont think any amount of knowledge can beat experience)

Lastly from your first post in this thread,

010101 -> Assembly -> C

I am afraid that's not true sir! But its surprising to hear this from someone so intellectual like yourself.

@Ebrizzlez, nice siggy, is that woman wearing something or dipped in chocolate,.... no shit... damn you guys, trying to turn suck-o into a porn site?

[G-Brain]

that does not give you right to disrespect experienced memberst

str33tl0rd wanted to take his hacking to the next level by learning how to program, I didn't expect him to want to hear bedtime stories. Could be me...

And about programming languages,
its all about roles,
A hacker is very generic term, and someone claiming he's a hacker and doesnt know how to program, thats strange,

I agree.

the beginners as far as i know, they learn things like XSS, sql injections, buffer overflows, remote file inclusions,

That completely depends on their interests. But yeah, if you want to be hacking websites you'd learn
JS: XSS
SQL: SQL injections
PHP: File inclusions

Now how can you expect to understand them, if you dont even have basic understanding of code(the guy wants to start learning coding)

Exactly my point, Lisp can help you gain that understanding.

Fortran is good for scientific applications

Java is good for multiplatform applications, but its slow, dont go into bits and bites processor pipelining principles and bit level dissection of JVM, i m just talking about user experience, those azureus users might agree with me, if you use IDEs, aptana is a bitch, and perfect example of a java app that pisses me off. Had it been in say, Visual C++, it would have been my Favourite IDE, But thats me, not everyone may think so, neither do i try to impose my thinking on anyone by telling him, dont learn java.

Of course, all languages have their uses, and nothing should stop you from learning them.

now what do you say, what language is best for hacking?

Trust me, I get that all languages have their uses (how many times have I said that?) and no language is best for everything, but if I recall correctly, the discussion was about which programming language was best to start out with.

or taking someone to next level.

He already defined taking it to the next level: he wanted to program.

You're are good at lisp, and possibly prolog, i've learnt prolog but only because it was in my curriculum so i was forced to and i never had any interest, so its as good as not knowing it, and i know shit about lisp, but all i know is that its very good for AI, well i think i m not that bad,as a hacker, but i never felt the need for any of those languages

I know. A few months ago, I figured the exact same thing. I haven't been using Lisp for very long, but I know that it is a very good language to teach the fundamentals of programming.

Lisp is multi-paradigm, you can do procedural or object-oriented programming like you can in Perl, PHP, Java, Javascript, Assembly, C, and C++, but you can also do functional programming like you can in Haskell, OCaml and Erlang. Granted, you've never even heard of any of these languages, or even functional programming, but there was also a day at which you didn't know about Perl, PHP, Java, Javascript, Assembly, C, and C++.

When you understand Lisp, it won't be hard to branch out to any of those other languages, and that's why I think it's a good first programming language. Lisp is not just for AI, I've personally never even used it for that, yet. I've written web applications, hacked my window manager, and scripted my text editor.

You see my point here, i learnt languages suited to my roll, neither do i say that only XYZ is good for start, nor do i say every language is same so learn whatever you like.

I can see how you learned languages to suit your roll, and I did the exact same thing. But I started with Perl, and clung on to it for a long time. That's not something you want, as a hacker, hence me recommending Lisp.

DNR's wasnt really offtopic if you try to understand, someone says he's hacker and says he wants to learn coding to take it to next level, well its just how you interpret it, next level what is it?

Whatever you interpret it as, he wanted to learn how to code. When I would ask which programming language I should learn, I would expect people to list a language and support their choice with good arguments.

What good would coding do if you dont have the curiousity to know how things work under the hood, how can you make them work they way you want if you dont even know how it works, apart from coding, how about networking? cryptography? arent they related to hacking? yes they are but still its your brain, your big bad brain( ) which can take you to next level, coding and all are just weapons in your arsenal, you need a good eye to spot the target and you need to analyze his strengths and weakness, the right timing and then pull the trigger, which is all done by your brain. Thats, as important as your weapon, your gun, both of them(weapon and brain) can be deadly together, but absence of either of them makes the other useless. You can get your weapon if you have good brain but a weapon cant bring you intelligence or the skills unless you work on them, that was how i interpreted DNR's post, that was his point to me. and it makes sense

I guess that makes sense. I just didn't expect that in a thread where someone asked which programming language to use.

Lastly from your first post in this thread,

010101 -> Assembly -> C

I am afraid that's not true sir! But its surprising to hear this from someone so intellectual like yourself.

Below that, I stated:

(with maybe something in between the one's and zero's and assembly, but it doesn't matter)

Because I knew I wasn't completely right. My point was that it didn't matter. It's just that Assembler is often treated as the lowest level, and C is treated as a higher-level assembler.

[pseudo_opcode]

DNR's wasnt really offtopic if you try to understand, someone says he's hacker and says he wants to learn coding to take it to next level, well its just how you interpret it, next level what is it?

Whatever you interpret it as, he wanted to learn how to code. When I would ask which programming language I should learn, I would expect people to list a language and support their choice with good arguments.

What good would coding do if you dont have the curiousity to know how things work under the hood, how can you make them work they way you want if you dont even know how it works, apart from coding, how about networking? cryptography? arent they related to hacking? yes they are but still its your brain, your big bad brain( ) which can take you to next level, coding and all are just weapons in your arsenal, you need a good eye to spot the target and you need to analyze his strengths and weakness, the right timing and then pull the trigger, which is all done by your brain. Thats, as important as your weapon, your gun, both of them(weapon and brain) can be deadly together, but absence of either of them makes the other useless. You can get your weapon if you have good brain but a weapon cant bring you intelligence or the skills unless you work on them, that was how i interpreted DNR's post, that was his point to me. and it makes sense

I guess that makes sense. I just didn't expect that in a thread where someone asked which programming language to use.

Extra piece of good advice is never harmful, and about the expectation, i like DNR's posts, search the forum for his earlier posts, his contribution, if people are just answered what they asked, dont you think it will get too boring? IT would be no better than school

Lastly from your first post in this thread,

010101 -> Assembly -> C

I am afraid that's not true sir! But its surprising to hear this from someone so intellectual like yourself.

Below that, I stated:

(with maybe something in between the one's and zero's and assembly, but it doesn't matter)

Because I knew I wasn't completely right. My point was that it didn't matter. It's just that Assembler is often treated as the lowest level, and C is treated as a higher-level assembler.

Yeah i understand, but i was tempted to point this out looking at the way you replied to them, i thought you loved details

[DNR]

ok, lets see if we can wrap this thread up and stick a cute bow on it

Suck-o is a mix of hackers, some of us can code, but we couldn't set up a network from scratch. Some of us are net-tech, but could care less about codes. Some of us are windows users, some run an OS of different flavor. Some of us are old school, we were around when the Commodore 64 came out, with a cassette tape drive and a whopping 75kb of RAM. That was back in 1983 for me, I was learning to write code in high school. I helped co-write a tank game, it looked like it was a version of Asteroids, the same black screen with lines for objects - but it was a real live game. I learned to get enjoyment from creating special life - I could make a machine 'think', then I could tweak it so it could have a personality..life.

I want other people to experience that feeling I did. As I grew older and experimented with other languages, I learned that it did not matter what language you chose - you can also get that same pleasure by building a computer, by even installing new devices. I mean, I learned to write programs for AS400, it is still a common NOS, but it was not as rewarding as settting up an entire network.

I am here on suck-o, a staff, because other people voted me in based on my worth as a contributor to the site. The select members help create the atmosphere here, and that is another attraction for people to come visit.

The answers are not all clear, answers to life or hacking, is not as simple as code - you have grey areas that are unexplainable, especially to the young neophytes.

I learned html and its related script because that was popular back then, html is also kind of neat because you have instant visual results - and most people - non-hackers can enjoy a decent website. I learned C, C++ in college, taking the required courses, and easily passing. But I couldn't wait to get out of class to get to my Novell classes, my Network Technologies classes, and then some free time to tinker in the computer lab..

I don't code, but I hack