Should you give the Police your Password?

[DNR]

There is some discussion about this topic so I wanted to see if anyone wants to kick it around here:

Magistrate Judge Finds Fifth Amendment Right Not to Enter Encryption Passphrase

First read the article to get the facts and statements:

http://volokh.com/posts/1197670606.shtml

I had posted something about this a year or so ago. A law created to make it a 5 year prison sentence if you refused to give the police your passwords. If the police came into your house on a legal warrant, seized your computer for a investigation, and found encrypted files - you would be compelled to give your password or face 5 years in jail!

The above ruling by a judge in a common, similar case is ruling that because the password is something 'of the mind' not a physical object - one does not have to be compelled to give it. The judge also cites protection against self incrimination.

Beware that the police had already found child porn on his laptop, having a encrypted file was assumed to be more child porn (what if it was just adult sick sex). It was likely that possessing more photos or videos would result in more counts of criminal violation, i.e. more jail time, more fines.

-----------

My opinion?

It is up to the police to gather evidence of my crimes, I should not be compelled to help them. I have the right to remain silent. If the police found a encrypted disk, or computer, or internet account, it is up to them to gather evidence in those files - without any help from me. If they don't have a CRAY computer or 450 computers to brute force my password - thats their problem.
The flipside of the coin, you can be compelled to give testimony in a court - something of your mind. If you refuse, it is jail for contempt. So is giving up a password the same thing as testimony?

ALSO

I would like to see a case where they try this, and the person claims he/she forgot the password, what then? Will they insist you go see a hypnosis or some other head shrinker to extract it from your brain? Will that person face 5 years in prison because they lost a password to an obscure encrypted file left on their computer?

What do you think?

DNR

[penumbra_wolf]

I don't think it would hold in court at all. Like the judge stated, it would most likely fall under the fifth amendment for self incrimination.

Either way, even if you DO actually remember the password all you would have to do is say that you don't, they can't prove that you really know the password and they wouldn't be able to hold something like forgetfulness which is inherent as a normal human function against you in court.

[Swan]

The way I see it (speaking as a law student) is that a person should be given the option to co-operate, by giving their password. They are free to decline to so do, but given the circumstances, this would give a stronger presumption of guilt on the part of the accused person.

Accusations, by their very nature, are a stain on a persons character, and the innocent man, puffed up with righteous indignation would normally be offended, and take all measures to prove his innocence. The guilty man, seeking to conceal his guilt, will make excuses, conditions, and qualifications to his "help".

[computathug]

Well i read this thread when you first posted it and have various emotions on the subject. I am strongly for us all having our human rights and i believe they shouldn't be able to pry into our lives. They know enough about us as it is with electronic tagging so this is one of the few laws i would like to stick around for a while, BUT i agree from the seriousness of the evidence already seen by the police, it should have warranted an order to force him to reveal the information or serve a minimum sentence of 15 years. The defendant therefore should also have rights and only the information as for such cases should have the rules bent for. If we were immune from any other offenses then i would gladly hand over the key to any file on my pc. Ya might say 15 years but to me that is too short as well. That is the worst crime any one could ever commit or even think about doing and for these people who do, who knows how far there sinister minds work. Yeah they should have to reveal and everything else classed as immune from prosecution. If thats me then i would let them see all and call it a lucky escape if there's anything else on there. You never know you might surprise some of them and get a job out of it if you can show them how quick you can take there web sites down. Be a good partnership, they give you the ip addresses and you get free permission to attack at will. I really could not see my government letting be be extradited to say Malaysia where the original site may have come from and passing me over to some bullshit court where the local mafia have me shot on the way in. In fact id be quite happy to say in our court, yeah it was me and im proud of it. The publicity could work 2 ways. I could either get loads of work and a secret government identity to carry on what im doing or get traced back to where i live where i get shot off the hit man the Malaysians hired.

back to the point

No SEX CASES SHOULD HAVE NO RIGHTS

Now if they came to me they would obviously be coming for different reasons. Shit to em, as if i would help them, lmao. I would rather go to prison and like nothing more than to come out and show the news the encrypted file were nothing more than designs for new bongs, and i didn't want my ideas stealing off them so now i want to take em to court for false imprisonment, and loss of earnings XD. Why would i do this? Because we live in a system. A controlled environment, and its getting worse. We no longer have rights. Theres no freedom of speech. At a click of a few buttons and they have a full profile of who you are, where your from, what your qualifications are, where you eat, drink, stop for fuel, even what you buy for shopping. They know how much you earn, how many times you fly abroad and if you bought your wall paper by credit card they might even know what color your bedroom is. With camera's, mobile phones, car trackers, GPS and electronic tagging we are no longer free. They think they control most of us which they are quite happy for. The rest keeps them in work and makes there job more exciting. For us its a slippery slope to total mind control from advertising campaigns, subliminal messages on tv. You think your safe in your own home, but your not. Everyone is vulnerable when you make mistakes.

Be good and when ya not being good, be careful

[DNR]

Be good and when ya not being good, be careful

Thats a good quote

I agree on a couple of things - certainly you should consider what you are doing - hacking a server to me isn't anywhere as bad as kiddie porn. I agree, no mercy to child molesters - a people that download that shit are just one step away from being one. Another step from being a child killer..

Yea, I thought I could go that route, do my hacks and then if the police like me enough they'll hire me. I did a couple of computer jobs, for the FBI. But, they always treated me with extreme caution - so you'll never really be one of 'them'. They just view you as some mystery. And thats too close to being a suspect for my comfort.

I guess I posted this as a warning - you can have the best encryption in the world, uncrackable. But, the law will find a way to put the screws in to you, maybe keeping you in jail indefinitely or undue punishment. Thats how they solved the problem with encryption, it don't matter, they'll get you for it.

Be good, if not, be nimble
naw, C-thug's quote's better

DNR

[TheKingOfHearts]

its my password. they can have it if they can brute force it.

isnt that like invading mah bindle

if they do want it. ill just change it to "shaduhasdjaay238123djfshdf02123827sfhweir02394203948023849283049823kfjsdknfsdjkfisdjfsd"

so they can go ....... themselfs

[DNR]

The point is, they say _you_ can go fuck yourself, either tell them the password, or you get 5 years in prison. No matter how great your password is, or if you got Blowfish, triple DES, or 128-fuckme.

DNR

[n3rd]

not really, if they cant proof without ne thing that has to do witht he content of the password. then ur a free man XD.

[rhysh]

lol its your pass your biz
so wat,its illegal not to tell the cops wat ur pass is,that means cops are gunna start sueing people for keeping thier passes private
wats the point of a pass then if its not secret

[Big-E]

I haven't made a post here yet, but I've thought about it.

There are various sides to this, of course, with any debate that is such an occurrence. Basically, I think one could argue "you have the right to remain silent" in such instance but then they (as in them, the law) could also argue about "obstruction of justice" - I am no law major, but I like to know as much law as I can to keep myself safe, when in due circumstances so I am not really sure if that is obstruction of justice if you have the right to remain silent. (of course, that is part of the debate)

As mentioned, one could also argue that they forgot the password then the prosecutor would have to provide evidence that you are lying. Which in my due opinion would be a difficult task for the best of lawyers.

If you have nothing to hide, heck why not give them your password. This will prompt the judge and or jury (if that be the case) that there is some integrity to your story if you choose to cooperate with the court system.

Finally, if they have physical access to a computer then there isn't a password out there that can keep them out - it`s only a matter of time.

Now that we're on the subject of law and computers - who would argue that computer law is TOO HARSH? You can kill someone and be out of jail quicker than if you wrote a virus. Do you know why? A virus affects big business (large corporate websites, etc.) opposed to a murder victim being a small human being. Seeing as big business doesn't care about little people, but rather their revenue and profits - they would create harsher laws to protect against it. (I am anti-big business btw...go small guy)

Anyway, that is my two cents.