The 'rapture'

[Gogeta70]

Well, as some of you know, i have a job doing construction. Currently, we're working over at a church pastors house, who likes to talk. Alot. Now before i get in too deep, i'd like you guys to know that i am a christian, just not an avid one. Anyway, he was talking about the current events, about how isreal is at war, and is already so deep into lebanon, etc. He said that in the bible, in the last chapter --Revelations-- It spoke about isreal being attacked, and while isreal was counter attacking, it was attacked. And at that very moment, all the devout, dedicated christians would vanish instantly appearing into the kingdom of heaven. From what i've heard, this is something that's pretty close, that's gonna be in our generation or the next. So... What do you guys think about all this?

Before we get into discussing this however, i want everyone to know that ANYONE that directly attacks another user on this forum will be punished accordingly. It is okay to state your beliefs, but you should also respect others' beliefs as well.

[Stavros]

Worst case scenario: Nuclear war.

I think most everyone wants to avoid it.

But happeneing as the Bible predicts? No. That's subject to interpretation in my opinion.

[Xonet]

In case of a next world war i think people would just vanish instantly, where they go to is up to your religion, im an attheist myself so i believe we just die and thats it basically. But with the kind of bombs we have now, i think a next world war will be catastrophical(spelling?!) for the world, here comes the fancy part, gonna quote einstein "I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.". I dont want to be pessimistic, its just not my thing, but the way America is handling things at the moment I think they wont be able to avoid a world war sooner or later, their defending of Israel no matter what is making a lot of countries pissed that on top of the allready numerous countries that have deep hatred against the US, only very recently China said it wasnt happy with the US's way of handling this war and was pretty pissed, Russia ignored the US's advice not to sell weapons to Chavez, North Korea is challenging the world again, US is getting less and less popular and once theyll be in war with a stronger country I think some other countries will see their chance. Luckily im sitting here in neutral Belgium.


just my thoughts about the line: "all the devout, dedicated christians would vanish instantly appearing into the kingdom of heaven." and the current things going on in the world.

[isapiens]

Mel Gibson gave u the true answer on TV u fools!! hehe jk.


PS: for those who dont know who is Mel Gibson. Its this famous american actor who got cought recently drunk driving and resisited the arrest. While doing that he cursed all jews and said they cause all the wars.. etc etc its all over the TV, he keeps appologizing everywhere. I find it really funny.

[DNR]

The bible does predict a certain armegeddon (sp?) a war over a piece of land, a battle for religious right to call their god most supreme.

Too many people take the bible in the wrong context. People think of god in a human form, or the interpetation of 'vanish' is exaggerated.

The end of the world does not have to be an act of god. If Iran will supply rockets to rain down on civilians to the hizabolla, what is a small 1 megaton thermo-nuclear bomb? It is not even a matter of money or oil.

How do you negotiate or expect a logical plan of action from a religion that says non-believers need to be exterminated, and you'll get 72 virgins and a gold throne in heaven if you suicide bomb a bunch of women and children?

The global war is to be expected, Iran, Syria, even Somalia, the taliban or the hizabolla - they all want to stand tall like the USA or Germany, - well - not exactly - they want to be the only power - remember their Islamic laws do not agree with your blessed freedoms. Israel is the poor unfortunate power trying to fight off the invasion, after Israel falls, you think they might head to England, Germany, Africa?

Nuclear war wasn't going to happen by two superpowers like russia and the usa, they both knew neither would survive a war of attrition.

What is the difference if a suicide bomber carries 50 lbs of bathtub plastic explosive studden with ballbearings into a shopping mall, or launches a 50 megaton warhead into Israel? Both are suicide bombers.

[Xonet]

How do you negotiate or expect a logical plan of action from a religion that says non-believers need to be exterminated, and you'll get 72 virgins and a gold throne in heaven if you suicide bomb a bunch of women and children?

Thats not how it is said at all, its only the opinion of extremists, and you have them in every religion, even christians, accoriding to them (and now im gonna exaggerate as much as u) youd rot in hell for eternity when you wear a condom for protection. Ive also seen a documentary on jewish terrorist camps, so uve got those fuckers that dont accept anyone else's opinion on every side. You should learn a lot more about the Islam before saying such things cuz they're completely wrong and only prove ur ignorance.

The global war is to be expected, Iran, Syria, even Somalia, the taliban or the hizabolla - they all want to stand tall like the USA or Germany, - well - not exactly - they want to be the only power - remember their Islamic laws do not agree with your blessed freedoms.

huh and the USA doesnt want power? thats all they ever think about in the foreign affairs, they only help countries where they know theyll get something in return, like a strategic base or big contracts, oil. They couldve done to thing going on in like Darfur and such, thats where help really is needed but they just couldnt care less cuz theyre not getting anything in return.

Israel is the poor unfortunate power trying to fight off the invasion, after Israel falls, you think they might head to England, Germany, Africa?

Hehe sure, then id advise you to look up how the state Israel was born. Rich jews bought land from arabs, kept buying and buying untill they could establish settlements and eventually establish their own state palestine land, u can imagine this process of buying land and claiming it to their state causes a lot of tention. So actually they are the invadors. and again the war atm didnt start with those 2 soldiers being captured cuz that was a direct consequence to the invasion in palestine by israel, but only the hezbollah had the guts to do something about it.


And the last thing id like u to think about:
whats the difference between people driven by hate because they lost their family by murderers, and blowing themselves up killing innocent civillians because thats the only way they can hurt the murderers back. And people that are being trained in professional camps, given the best equipement but go under the name of "soldiers" to kill innocent civillians because they follow those orders so they get theyre montly paycheck. none both parties in war are terrorists, and the fact is that in the war at the moment israel has made a bigger percentage civillian casualties then hezbollah, so whos the biggest terrorist?

[FrankB]

The bible does predict a certain armegeddon (sp?) a war over a piece of land, a battle for religious right to call their god most supreme.

As far as i know, the Vatican doesn't caution that. The book of Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezechiel and the set that makes the "Apocalypse" are not 'granted'/cautionned by the Roman Church nor by the Hassidic (most austere Jewish believers) nor in the Quran.
All the popes until now have comdemned those pasages in the Bible as 'apocryphic' and so not entirely reliable.

Too many people take the bible in the wrong context. People think of god in a human form, or the interpetation of 'vanish' is exaggerated.

That is only true for the Bible and that's what you get when you embrace a monotheistic religion: you are more tempted to put a face and persona on the one you worship, a thing that happens less in polytheistic religions like Hinduism and non theistic religions like buddhism.
Nether the Jews (who aren't allowed to pronounce the name of God, since they have no appropriate vocable to name God, only his fingerprint: 'YHVH'') neither the muslims are allowed to make a representation whatsoever of their almighty Allah/God/YHVH.

The end of the world does not have to be an act of god.

I agree with you on that point.

How do you negotiate or expect a logical plan of action from a religion that says non-believers need to be exterminated, and you'll get 72 virgins and a gold throne in heaven if you suicide bomb a bunch of women and children?

You don't negociate: you destroy them!
That's maybe havy talk but see it that way : the fact that radical muslim confuse wardriving with ethics and raw-terror acts will be their point of weakness. Actual news shows we are on the right hand : Tsahal litterally 'takes no prisoners' and the radical muslims can shove their 'martyr whining' up into their sweaty arses. Nobody likes them anyway, even not moderate muslims who have the same radical ideas against the aggressive colonisation activities of Israel ( funded and supported by uncle Sam, btw)
[/quote]

The global war is to be expected, Iran, Syria, even Somalia,

Forget that. There's 2,5 billion Muslims and most of them think the USA and Israel is their worst ennemy ever. well.. they are wrong. They should learn to dump old rancunous affairs and look behind them : their new fresh ennemies are more something like China, India, Japan, Thailand, Myanmar and maybe North-Korea. If muslims keeep on suicide bombing in Thailand, Indonesia, if they keep on making trouble wherever they are and in China, India and Thailand they are going to put world-powers against them, world powers with no pitty and a lots of nukes.
I'l bet you they' will whine back for the USA as allee in their struggle once they find out who their real ennemies are.

Israel is the poor unfortunate power trying to fight off the invasion, after Israel falls, you think they might head to England, Germany, Africa?

LOL!, i think you have a bad idea of what is going on or you confuse muslims and the Jihad/Intifada `mujahidins'. It is not he same thing.. they even don't really share much of the same religion anymore.
They never really had, if you read the Quran, you notice the passage about the "Hashishin", where the words 'assassin' and ( hasj/pot )derives from.
The Quran warns about a
" old wise on the mountain, mount Alamut that excelled in corrupting young souls to die for his cause. He would make them taste the luxurious things of heaven : drugs, sex & rock and roll" and then make them crave for it and having them on the top of an abyss and let them be prepared 'would you give your own life and take other lives away to live the pleasures you had here, multiplied by 72 in the Above ?"
"
Really!

Nuclear war wasn't going to happen by two superpowers like russia and the usa, they both knew neither would survive a war of attrition.

Current news, Israel versus fractions in the Arab world is neither a conflict of two 'superpowers', believe me, there are more people that die everyday in Central Africa from insurgence, corrupt civil wars, police state violence etc.. than in the current Israel/Middle-East conflict.

--
FrankB

[FrankB]

whats the difference between people driven by hate because they lost their family by murderers,

That's hatred and in civilized populations, one does not take the law in his hands.

and blowing themselves up killing innocent civillians because thats the only way they can hurt the murderers back.

Really ? Do you really caution random murder of innocent people because they kind of 'belong' to the same people/race or speak the same language or worship the same god as the ones who killed your familly ?

And would you be proud and credible to your fellow companions if on the same occasion, when you pull the trigger you scream "Allah ou akbahr" and make others believe what you did was a religious act of 'holy war' and not a personal affair ?

Would you want to kill all what responds "yes" to the calling "Jew" if a rabbi decimated your familly ?

And people that are being trained in professional camps, given the best equipement but go under the name of "soldiers" to kill innocent civillians because they follow those orders so they get theyre montly paycheck.

1. a soldier is a soldier and is trained to obey orders, you cannot judge them, judge their generals.
2. Do you think that it is fair "guerilla", so with less sophisticated weapons like the arabo-palestine so called resistance to hide between civilians ?? Where where the head-quarters of the Hezbollah ?
--> in the midst of a f*cking city. Is that proper guerilla ?
No.
Even in South America, guerrilleros were not that stupid as to mix themselves with the locals. (Columbia excepted ).

BTW, the Hezbollah is even not desired in Lebanon, they are 'tolerated' as you and I would have tolerate a French secret militant organisation in Belgium during the cold-war to secure yourself against the evul Russians.

--
FrankB

[DNR]

damn! did we get politics and religion mixed up with our technical discussion? I know it is a difficult subject, but I really appreciated the different views on current events.

Lets get a few more things clear, IMO

1. Religion is important, and we have to accept different views. It is not unreasonable to ask that other religions do not act hostile to one another.
I may not know Islam, so what!, do you know Hindu, Christian, Buddism, orthodox jew? No other religion I know of has preachers inciting people to blow themselves up or fly 747's in to buildings - I make my judgements be how people act, not by their words. So far, Islam has the position of 'my religion or die', are those living under taliban rule really happy spiritually? I may not tolerate your views but I am not going to kill you over it.

2. Soldiers/Cops/trained personell do not want to fight, its the politicians fault they are put into a position to defend themselves. People that have experienced combat do not wish to see it again. Every soldier I know wants to be back home with family and work.

3. Every country wants power, it means growth and aid. Can you blame them? All governments suck. Human nature is to survive and at the bare core thats what all this fighting is about. Do the math > 1 planet, 3 or 4 warring religions, and one nut with a nuclear bomb = 0 planet.

4. Aid? For oil? That stuff cost money, why shouldn't we expect something in return? My hourly wages are deducted for taxes, to help people I don't know, and I get nothing really from them. What did your country do for Darfur? Maybe you are right, we should stop helping other countries, make it all business. If you got nothing we want, we are going to let you die.

DNR
What is the right thing to do?

[Xonet]

whats the difference between people driven by hate because they lost their family by murderers,

That's hatred and in civilized populations, one does not take the law in his hands.

Yes one does, in every country even in Belgium people take the law in their own hands, maybe not as frequently as there but hey, our houses arent being bombed every day.

and blowing themselves up killing innocent civillians because thats the only way they can hurt the murderers back.

Really ? Do you really caution random murder of innocent people because they kind of 'belong' to the same people/race or speak the same language or worship the same god as the ones who killed your familly ?

I never said theyre doing the right thing, i just said i understand why they do it, but its the same with Israel and america, theyre bombing houses of innocent people just because they live in the same country/belong to the same race and speak the same language as a sucide bomber.

And people that are being trained in professional camps, given the best equipement but go under the name of "soldiers" to kill innocent civillians because they follow those orders so they get theyre montly paycheck.

1. a soldier is a soldier and is trained to obey orders, you cannot judge them, judge their generals.
2. Do you think that it is fair "guerilla", so with less sophisticated weapons like the arabo-palestine so called resistance to hide between civilians ?? Where where the head-quarters of the Hezbollah ?
--> in the midst of a f*cking city. Is that proper guerilla ?
No.
Even in South America, guerrilleros were not that stupid as to mix themselves with the locals. (Columbia excepted ).

1. a soldier in my opinion allways has the option to refuse, if i would be a soldier and my general sayd i have to drop a bomb on a school, id rather go to prison, You are allways responsible for your own actions if you decide to follow orders blindly and not ask "why are we bombing a school?" then ur guilty as well.

2.If the hezbollah or palistine militants would have head quarters, the war would last 10 minutes. they dont have the weapons to defend base camps, or go bombing Israel's camps. Im not saying its good to do it this way but theyre forced to do it like this, its their only option.

Even in South America, guerrilleros were not that stupid as to mix themselves with the locals. (Columbia excepted ).

You cant compare the 2, in south america the terrain is a lot more jungle-like in cuba for example they had the sierra maestra, huge mountains with with thick forests, when you fly a plane over there you cant see their camps, but in the mid east,what do you have there? desert, you cant hide as good as in south america

BTW, the Hezbollah is even not desired in Lebanon, they are 'tolerated' as you and I would have tolerate a French secret militant organisation in Belgium during the cold-war to secure yourself against the evul Russians.

well then this war changed that cuz the people of lebanon really are on the hezbollah's side, theyve shown it with their protests, they shout against israel and america and for the hezbollah.

[Xonet]

damn! did we get politics and religion mixed up with our technical discussion? I know it is a difficult subject, but I really appreciated the different views on current events.

Lets get a few more things clear, IMO

1. Religion is important, and we have to accept different views. It is not unreasonable to ask that other religions do not act hostile to one another.
I may not know Islam, so what!, do you know Hindu, Christian, Buddism, orthodox jew? No other religion I know of has preachers inciting people to blow themselves up or fly 747's in to buildings - I make my judgements be how people act, not by their words. So far, Islam has the position of 'my religion or die', are those living under taliban rule really happy spiritually? I may not tolerate your views but I am not going to kill you over it.

Like you said yourself, you dont know Islam. Why do you claim their preachers incite people to blow themselves up or fly 747's into buildings?

thats what some sick people, maybe 1% of the population does, using Islam to defend their actions. There are christians that hate islam as well and would like them to be bombed, but theres a difference, their country does it for them. You cant deny that the America considers itself at war with the Islam, the last countries they invaded were Islam countries and they didnt invade them because they wanted to help the people, they did it cuz they could establish a government thats pro-america.

2. Soldiers/Cops/trained personell do not want to fight, its the politicians fault they are put into a position to defend themselves. People that have experienced combat do not wish to see it again. Every soldier I know wants to be back home with family and work.

that bs, you know what ur starting when u join the army, you know theres a big chance youll have to fight, if you dont want to fight, DONT join the army.

3. Every country wants power, it means growth and aid. Can you blame them? All governments suck. Human nature is to survive and at the bare core thats what all this fighting is about. Do the math > 1 planet, 3 or 4 warring religions, and one nut with a nuclear bomb = 0 planet.

yes you can blame them, killing millions of people for power, thats just sick. "Human nature is to survive and at the bare core thats what all this fighting is about." well the human nature is dumb, plain stupid. Bombing innocent people, sacrifices from both sides, more people dont survive then when they wouldnt fight for survival. I dont think theyr succeeding in their survival

4. Aid? For oil? That stuff cost money, why shouldn't we expect something in return? My hourly wages are deducted for taxes, to help people I don't know, and I get nothing really from them. What did your country do for Darfur? Maybe you are right, we should stop helping other countries, make it all business. If you got nothing we want, we are going to let you die.

well your politicians allways say they want to "help" other countries "establish democracy", maybe next time they can say, we're gonna invade <country> and get oil, let see how many people are behind them then, maybe you will. If its your opinion that youd rather have 100 people killed then giving a dollar for them, thats ur own sick choice. Belgium defends the situation in darfur and gives money for aid, thats all we can do.


"Maybe you are right, we should stop helping other countries, make it all business. If you got nothing we want, we are going to let you die."

omg your really twisting my words there, i never said we should stop helping other countries and make it all business, i said the exact oppisite that we should help other countries but help them because they are in real trouble and not help them because we will get better on it, thats not helping them, thats exploiting them with a stupid excuse.

[LaBlueGirl]

damn! did we get politics and religion mixed up with our technical discussion? I know it is a difficult subject, but I really appreciated the different views on current events.

This is such an inflammatory topic, though:)

I've received email abuse from more right-wing-minded individuals already and been called a "f*cking Political(sic) Socrates"

Lets get a few more things clear, IMO
1. Religion is important, and we have to accept different views. It is not unreasonable to ask that other religions do not act hostile to one another.

No, it isn't unreasonable, just improbable

I may not know Islam, so what!, do you know Hindu, Christian, Buddism, orthodox jew?

Yes, actually LOL.

No other religion I know of has preachers inciting people to blow themselves up or fly 747's in to buildings - I make my judgements be how people act, not by their words. So far, Islam has the position of 'my religion or die', are those living under taliban rule really happy spiritually? I may not tolerate your views but I am not going to kill you over it.

Dunno if they are happy, that's too arbitrary.

While the violence in Islam is more or less unique to modern religion, you can compare it to the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem witch trials.

Fortunately, this POV is only held by hardline Muslims.

2. Soldiers/Cops/trained personell do not want to fight, its the politicians fault they are put into a position to defend themselves. People that have experienced combat do not wish to see it again. Every soldier I know wants to be back home with family and work.

Not true in all cases:)

I have known several ppl personally, one being a sniper for the Marines and his younger brother (killed in Iraq).

All they want/ed to do was fight:)
Sniper-guy was shot too many times, so he was getting his nursing degree while working at a local hospital.
He wasn't happy about it, I can tell you

I believe the majority want to be home, but again you can compare it to Islamic extremism:
Most don't want to fight, but there are the hardcore soldiers who want to fight for US beliefs and are willing to kill/be killed for it.
(I didn't say compare the numbers of ppl, just the mentality).

3. Every country wants power, it means growth and aid. Can you blame them? All governments suck. Human nature is to survive and at the bare core thats what all this fighting is about. Do the math > 1 planet, 3 or 4 warring religions, and one nut with a nuclear bomb = 0 planet.

Nah, this fighting is politics, oil and money:)

Sort of like the board game 'Risk' lol

These countries aren't stupid. Foolhardy, maybe.
Get a list of all the countries that are allowed to have nukes:)
France, China, Soviet Union, US, Pakistan, India, N Korea (not allowed but they have them anyhoo), Israel (c'mon, it's possible), Iran (accused)..and I don't know what else:)

The IAEA says 40 countries may develop nuclear weapons under the clause that permits uranium enrichment for energy.

If one nation starts with the nukes...
The horror...the horror....

I think it would be a last resort.

4. Aid? For oil? That stuff cost money, why shouldn't we expect something in return? My hourly wages are deducted for taxes, to help people I don't know, and I get nothing really from them. What did your country do for Darfur? Maybe you are right, we should stop helping other countries, make it all business. If you got nothing we want, we are going to let you die.

DNR
What is the right thing to do?

We have interests in other countries.
Even if we can't get oil from them (I find that not likely), we can help establish a ruling party who favorably views the US and its foreign interests.

I have never minded the US helping out other countries.
Here in Europe, it is very remembered, the US and WWII.
I get old ppl who learned English from the soldiers talking to me about it:)

It is appreciated, but I guess not as much as if we tried to reform their govt's into a Usian utopia

LBG[/url]