9-11 inside job

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Insection
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9-11 inside job

Post by Insection »

I personally hate bringing up old old topics but im really convinced bush planned the whole 9-11 so he could get an excuse to invade middle east and control the oil prices.

Good music to do with 9-11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA_xXWSXyFI

A speech by a muslim (Very good watch):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-fDgXzAj_o


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Post by mystikblaze »

..
Last edited by mystikblaze on 21 Jun 2009, 08:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by bad_brain »

well, hard to find someone in a country from which no reliable maps exist, especially when this country is a known terrorism supporter ruled by islamic fundamentalists.
the fact they haven't found him is even a sure sign that the USA was not involved....else they would have killed him (dangerous witness) and presented his dead body to the public to celebrate it as great victory....this would even have given them more reasons to give more rights to the secret services and to cut the civil rights (because "it worked!").

and the muslim video...sorry, but it would be the first time that fundamental muslims show something like self-reflection, it's always the others for them....they hate the USA, so it's just natural they blame the USA for this terrorist attack. the intention behind this is that they want to destabilize the country by making people believe their own government killed thousands of their own citizens.

and this "evidence"...come on, how many times have airplanes of that size crashed into buildings of that type? never before. so how can somebody say anything about it without having comparative values?

don't just question what happened, also question the people that question what happened.... :wink:

p.s. check this video, it's not really about 9/11 but it gives some nice insights into islam:

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Post by Insection »

well im muslim and i have to disagree on that bad_brain

we all have our opinions and thats fine, but let me give you my opinion.
(not intended to offend anyone)


----

Yes, there are alot of terrorist that "claim" they are muslim and are definetly not muslim at all, they are a bunch of nuisances on the world .

Lets take a look at pro-christianity, they blow up hospitals just because it provides abortion. If you ask a real christian who lives by the bible will definitely oppose that the bombers are real christians.


There are muslims that rape/harm women just because they dont wear a scarf. But if you ask a real muslim that lives by the quran, he will definitely oppose that the rapist/harmer is muslim.



Most christians have a bad insight of islam and islam has a bad insight of christianity, but the fact of the matter is that we are all human.


And my replies on that video you linked really saddens me that this is what people see of my religion, and if this is what they see of my religion what they probably see of me. I have mixed feelings that someone would say "this is a nice insight to islam" then link to such a fowl video.


The comments that man said:

"The quran encourages muslims to kill non-believers" is absalutely absurd.

YES, it does say kill the non-believers in the quran but only because at the time of the release of the quran muslims and christians and jews were all in a mass war in saudi arabia. And so by saying "show no mercy as you will recieve none" is not due to hate, its due to the war at the time.


The prophet married a girl at the age of 9, Yes it is immoral in the society we live in today, but you must not forget that in those days this was completely normal.




Some priests or christian school teachers sexually abuse little boys, but i as a muslim am very aware that this is not what a real christian is/does.

I have many christian friends and they have honor and loyalty for their name/family name.

So it would be wrong if i accused christians of something they are not.

And people making horrid accusations on my religion, how do you think that makes me feel.

Ive explained a bit of the quran, let me talk about the bible.

"They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man........Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Code: Select all

 Bible:(Numbers 31:7,17-18)"

This is an authentic source from the bible.

Now if i say all christians are pedophiles? I would be a complete idiot and stupid.

So that man in the video that bad_brain posted that says "muslims are pedophiles that rape women" Then tell me? That man is a complete idiot and fool.



Please understand my anger bad_brain but by you simply saying "this is a good insight to islam" and linking it to that son of a bitch really burns me and gets me asking myself? Where are we all heading....

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Post by bad_brain »

of course I didn't wanted to offend you personally, Insection. and I also haven't meant "all muslims are bad people", there are idiots everywhere...no matter if they are muslims, christians, whatever.

I am an atheist and I also dislike what christians do, they are often big hypocrites. organized religions are always dangerous, because they deny the need for a free will and replace it with the will of a "god" or "representatives of god on earth". but the problem with the islam is that it is not just a religion, it is about politics too....I don't know if you have followed the "UN antidiscrimination conference" in switzerland a little ago, where people like the leader of iran, ahmadinedschad, promoted repeatedly the annihilation of israel...in the name of islam (some days ago he even announced "we can annihilate israel within 11 days")

I understand that you completely disagree with what Geert Wilders says in the video, but you can't disagree with the fact that democracy and islam are direct opposites....or can you name an islamic country with freedom of opinion, freedom of speech, etc.? could you be a member of suck-o when living in iran for example?
in the western democratic countries muslims can build mosques, name one islamic country where christians can build churches. a good example is Turkey...50 years ago non-muslims were the majority in this country (alevites, christians, etc.), now the percentage of non-muslims is about 0.2%, reached with expulsion and forced conversion. christians lead a dangerous life there, and Turkey is even labeled as "moderate".

I also have to agree with you that the christian religion is also often abused by idiots for their own targets, but you have to admit that way more (and way severe) crimes are committed "in the name of islam".
of course there are surely many (the majority) muslims that are good and nice people, but what I really miss is a real opposition against those radical terrorists that commit crimes in the name of allah then....it is condoned instead of criticized.
YES, it does say kill the non-believers in the quran but only because at the time of the release of the quran muslims and christians and jews were all in a mass war in saudi arabia.
this might be true, but, as Geert Wilders said, many muslims don't see the quran in historic context, they see it as law...for the past, the present and the future...because it is said so by many imams. once again I see no criticism from the "moderate" muslims about that (you surely know what would happen to you if you would live in an islamic country and would say it is wrong what the imam says in public).


ok, I surely, don't want this thread to turn into a debate on principles of the islam, discussions about religion are pointless as we all know.
but maybe you would understand my opinion and the opinion of people like Geert Wilders a little more if you would live in europe and would experience what is happening here. in germany for example we had multiple cases of so-called "honor killings", where family members killed their daughter/sister because she was "too much into the western lifestyle", and in other crimes (robbery, domestic violence, assault) immigrants from islamic countries are #1 here. but it would be stupid to say this is all the fault of the muslims "because they are bad people", the problem has 2 sides:

- many muslems simply don't want to integrate, but integration is a must if you live in another country. I don't mean they have to become christians or stuff like that, but they have to respect our culture and submit to the rules and laws. an example: about a year ago a house burned down in germany, turks lived in there. the first reaction of the turkish community and the turkish government was "nazi attack!"...when the fire fighters arrived they were even attacked by turks standing around the building and named nazis. then the turkish prime minister arrived in germany, but instead of trying to ease the tension he said stuff like "turks shall not integrate, assimilation is murder of turkish people!".
so you surely understand why many people here think "they label us all nazis, they don't want to integrate, they don't respect our culture...why to hell they are here?"

- but it is also our own fault. european politicians do a policy of appeasement since years, and even the mass media promotes to tolerate the intolerant. we have problems here, but if you name those problems you are called a "nazi"....germany for example is heading towards a communistic dictatorship, we have 5 big political parties here, but all are the same, so actually it's like 1 big party. we have no real opposition here anymore. and instead of working for the own citizens they cut down our civil rights for the sake of political correctness. another example: if I call a muslim "you fuckin' muslim!" I can go to jail for it because I commited a crime (incitement of the people), but if someone calls me "fuckin' nazi german!" he is allowed to and committed no crime by saying it.
if people are not allowed to say what they think anymore it begins to boil below the surface until it explodes...we have elections here in germany this year, and many people think (me included) that the results of the elections will cause chaos (no party here you can really vote for, all the same), we might head toward a civil war here.


once again: I am surely not offending you personally or trying to say "all muslims are bad people", it's the fault of BOTH sides (muslims and non-muslims), but it is necessary that also BOTH sides realize that.... :wink:

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Post by DNR »

Thank you Insection for responding, and you did it so well.

I don't blame religion nor government, I blame people.

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Abstain

Post by lilrofl »

lilrofl vocaly abstains, with one caveat:

I don't think it's the religion, it's the organization... sort of a God please save me from your people prayer lol.

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Post by DrVirus »

There was this great quote in the movie Blood Diamond. The religious people should take a look at it.

"Sometimes I wonder if God will ever forgive us for what we've done to each other...Then I look around and I realize... God left this place a long time ago."

And @insection, I wouldn't want to attack you personally, but if you look at the facts, all the major terrorist groups in the world claims to liberate the world using Islam. The most killings are done by supposed muslims. Including what my country recently witnessed 26/11 on Mumbai. About 200 people are dead. And the only arrested terrorist Ajamal Kasab is a muslim. He has shown no remorse so far. Maybe islam was once created with good intentions. But now all that is left of it is a tool for world domination. Maybe islam is not evil. But if today you stand in front of the police colony of Mumbai who faced the terrorists, guess what ? No one will belive you.

May it's unfortunate but it's fact. The indians today live in paranoia and fear of a Taliaban intrusion. And as they pass through pakistan inching closer and closer that fear is growing. Unless some radical change comes to effect real soon. People are afraid of the muslims. And blaming the people who suffered for their own suffering wont help it.

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Post by Insection »

I can answer your questions.
If you have time i would like you to read the whole thing.


Bad Brain asked:
I understand that you completely disagree with what Geert Wilders says in the video, but you can't disagree with the fact that democracy and islam are direct opposites....or can you name an islamic country with freedom of opinion, freedom of speech, etc.?

Simple answer, no i cannot as there is none

But what if i ask you a question, can you name a muslim country that dislikes the way it is goverened (in a religious view) your answer will too be no.

So my simple question to you is, why would you care if there is no freedom of speech in an islamic country? The muslims are fine with it, i dont see the reason anyone else should cause havoc.


If the muslims DID have freedom of speech, i personally believe it would be a better place but the sad truth is that it doesnt and to a certain extent in human existence it wont.


"Freedom of speech" are powerful words, and one citizen in a large population can cause corruption and problems.

Lets take a look at the kennedy assasination, i personally believe that man was and would be forever the best president, simply i liked his way of thinking. But because the way he was expressing himself he got assasinated. Now is that freedom of speech? I dont think so.


Bad Brain asked:
Turkey...50 years ago non-muslims were the majority in this country (alevites, christians, etc.), now the percentage of non-muslims is about 0.2%, reached with expulsion and forced conversion. christians lead a dangerous life there, and Turkey is even labeled as "moderate".


Yes what you are saying is true. Christians have been treated bad in islamic countries and there have been forced conversions. No doubt about that. I personally believe its barbaric. BUT the majority of the conversions dont have anything to do with political/religious views.

Lets take a look at the US for example.

After the 9-11 incident islamic conversions have increased on a high scale. Now tell me? Can you blame the turks or arabs for that?

If i walk up to a random american and ask them their views on islam. The response is obvious. And if i walk up to a muslim and ask him on his views on any other religion. The response will also be obvious.

Take a look at the way the media is trying to present to islam to americans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4ylMdCU7Gc


Bad Brain said:
"they label us all nazis, they don't want to integrate, they don't respect our culture...why to hell they are here?"

You are absolutely right, they have no right to make those comments when they are living on your land, that is a mistake of the turkish and turkish only.
But more frequent comments have been made on the muslims. Tell me, who hasn't heard someone say "all muslims are terrorists" so what your saying is true to a certain extent but you must remember everything is double sided. The media is only showing the side the government WANTS you to see. It takes 2 to tango.



Bad Brain said:
if I call a muslim "you fuckin' muslim!" I can go to jail for it because I commited a crime (incitement of the people), but if someone calls me "fuckin' nazi german!" he is allowed to and committed no crime by saying it.

Nazi is almost the same thing as terrorist to a certain extent. So Nazi'sm has nothing to do with religion and should not be associated with religion becuase then you would be comparing terrorism with a religion.

"You fucking muslim" yes would cause trouble
"You fucking christian" yes would cause trouble
"You fucking terrorist" no trouble here
"You fucking nazi" no trouble here





Bad Brain said:
YES, it does say kill the non-believers in the quran but only because at the time of the release of the quran muslims and christians and jews were all in a mass war in saudi arabia.
this might be true, but, as Geert Wilders said, many muslims don't see the quran in historic context, they see it as law...for the past, the present and the future...because it is said so by many imams.


Well you just answered your own question, "MANY" muslims don't see the quran in historic context. Well then i as a muslim can say "MANY" muslims are retards if they dont.

What if i say:

"MANY" athiests have no faith because they feel insecure on what to believe in.

This would be incorrect as most athiests believe in science as the only deity and/or cannot be bothered with religion and its consequences.

E.g

John: "Islam and Christianity is good but i like getting drunk and like one night stands"

Mary: "Islam wants me to wear a scarf, but boys wont notice me and my friends wont like me anymore"


From what i see, i feel sorry for the american soldiers.
They are fighting for their country? hah, biggest joke thats not funny.

They are dieing in masses on FOREIGN land. I mean common! How blind can american politicians be? Why would you purposely kill your children. There is absolutely no excuse. Instead of spending all that money on a military spend it on researches to find a renewable energy source other than oil.

Then tell me? Wont that bring respect to your nation? Wont that make the muslims to respect America? But what america is doing is warfare on foreign land for "economic" purposes. I mean who are you tricking. The american politicians are the real terrorists. And i tell my muslim friends not to hate America, because even though they have the power to vote, its the politicians that make all the decisions and its the media that spread all the controversy, all politicians are corrupt and want an economic growth over anything else. And because america has alot of money and military power it thinks it has the "right" and "job" to control oil in the world. But this is false. Every country should be responsible for itself, and should be allowed to control its OWN resources.

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Post by bad_brain »

first of all I want to thank you for keeping that discussion in an objective way, we all know topics like religion and politics are very sensitive and often end up in personal accusations... :) :wink:
You are absolutely right, they have no right to make those comments when they are living on your land, that is a mistake of the turkish and turkish only.
ok, I have to agree on that, we have many people from iran too here for example, and those integrate very well....but I have to add that those people are 99% christians that had to flee from Iran because their life was in danger (for being christians). and that brings me to the next point:
But what if i ask you a question, can you name a muslim country that dislikes the way it is goverened (in a religious view) your answer will too be no.
without freedom of speech there can be no opposition, if people are already oppressed for their religion how could they dare to say anything against their government? it would be like suicide.
So my simple question to you is, why would you care if there is no freedom of speech in an islamic country? The muslims are fine with it, i dont see the reason anyone else should cause havoc.
well, right, if there is a country where all citizens are muslims (and I don't mean muslims that have been forced to convert) it's ok for me. but can you name such a country?
Iraq? no, they killed their own citizens with poison gas (kurds in the northern Iraq) because they disagreed with the Iraq politics and wanted to split.
Iran? well, see what I wrote above about the christians from there.
Turkey? hell no, they committed genocide against the armenian citizens (christians), victims about 1,5 million...and they deny it until today.
Saudi Arabia? not at all, say you are homosexual for example and you can prepare to face severe punishment under the sharia law. women are also worth nothing in that country...simply google for "girl from quatif". she was gang-raped by 7 men and afterwards sentenced to prison and 200 lashes...her crime was that she sat alone in a car with a man that was not her relative. homosexuals and women are also citizens, and I doubt they like it that way.
From what i see, i feel sorry for the american soldiers.
They are fighting for their country?
sorry, but if I follow that logic it was also wrong that the USA took part in the liberation of europe in world war 2.
Instead of spending all that money on a military spend it on researches to find a renewable energy source other than oil.

Then tell me? Wont that bring respect to your nation? Wont that make the muslims to respect America?
true, but oil is not just an energy source, the problem is that our whole life is based on oil....simply have a look at the keyboard your are typing on at the moment, a lot of oil was used to make it. but the biggest problem in context with this is that the oil industry is too powerful, there is too much money involved...their influence reaches into the highest positions of any government.
Every country should be responsible for itself, and should be allowed to control its OWN resources.
true, no doubt. but you have to draw a line as soon as a country is becoming a danger to others or is abusing its resources to blackmail others. best example: Iran. if you put all religious aspects aside you will have to agree that Ahmadinedschad is a madman....his main priority is to get the a-bomb, and I am sure he wouldn't hesitate to use it against Israel (he announced "Iran can annihilate Israel within 11 days" a few weeks ago). this should be a job for the UN, but in reality the UN is nothing but bloated bunch of windbags and incapable of an action...that's why the US always had to do the job of the UN in the past, actually we should be grateful for that.
as long as the islamic nations don't respect the right of existence of Israel there can't be any peace, if anyone would simply try to get along with each other the world could be a wonderful place...but I guess this will never happen, because there are always idiots that abuse others for their own interests....muslim, non-muslim, martian, don't matter.

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