tinderbox europe

Post by **bad_brain** » 02 Nov 2009, 14:26

as I have mentioned in another thread, the CIA has predicted in 2008 that many areas in europe will be not governable anymore until 2020 and and civil wars/riots will break out. imo this is even optimistic, I think it'll not take longer than 2-3 years from now.

there is an unofficial list of cities in germany where riots will most likely break out first...check the map here.
of course the german government denied the existence of any official lists...but the french government even runs a public list of "sensitive urban areas" (nice paraphrase btw):
http://i.ville.gouv.fr/divbib/doc/chercherZUS.htm

Post by **bad_brain** » 02 Nov 2009, 18:49

well, I can only speak for germany because I live there, but it's similar in other european countries I guess.
many citizens here have the feeling that we don't have a democracy anymore. usually you have 2 directions in democratic parties: a conservative (right) movement and a liberal (left) movement. but in germany the conservatives are as left now as the liberals have been 20 years ago, and the liberals are now borderline-communists. the sad political highlight in the last years was the fact the "Linke" (an extreme leftwing political party) became a potential partner for the established parties....and the "Linke" is nothing but the former "SED" (socialistic unity party) that ruled the former eastgermany. under their regime people were tortured and killed (hundreds of people were shot for example when they tried to cross the border to westgermany).

but instead of seeing the danger from the left political corner everything is about "fighting nazis", it became totally bizarre, here is an example:
the german word "Autobahn" (translated "car track") is forbidden now, you now have to say "multilane expressway with central barrier" because the first "autobahns" were built in the 3rd reich....and therefore the word is "nazi".

so, as someone who is not living in germany you might think now "wow, there must be a lot of nazis over there if they have to fight them that hard"...but there are just VERY few, the biggest extreme rightwing political party has just about 3000 members and at least 20% of them are undercover agents of the secret service (check * on the bottom). the ones that really hate democracy and commit violence against innocent citizens on the streets are the so-called extreme left "antifa" ("anti-fascists"). if you, as regular citizen, make a demonstration and the topic is something that is "rightwing" in the eyes of the "antifa" they will attack you, they will beat you up and throw rocks and molotov cocktails at you...and what the government does? nothing, because "they say they are fighting nazis, so it MUST be good whatever they do".

so, actually we have no more free speech in germany, our democracy turned socialism where people with opinions different from the "official" one have to face severe consequences (losing the job, getting beaten up) and more and more people are fed up with it.

democracy means the elected politicians have to do what the people want, but here the people have to do what the politicians want...

* it's a fact that loads of the NPD members are agent provocateurs of the secret service, some years ago all "oh so good and brave" established politicial parties started a procedure in order to ban the NPD. in the end they had to stop the procedure because it came to public that the crimes they accused the NPD of were all done by undercover agents.

Post by **bad_brain** » 03 Nov 2009, 06:25

maybe it was never meant to be a union

yeah, it's exactly the same with the european union (EU)....I don't get it why politicians always want to unite everything, imagine you live in a big house and tear down every wall inside of it so all neighbors live in 1 big room, just a question of time until trouble starts. the european government (located in Brussels) in one big joke, the politicians that work there don't do it because they wanted to, they have been sent there....the european government is actually a junkyard for politicians that proved to be too stupid for a position in the country governments.

you know what "useful laws" they make there? really great ones, like "what angle a banana needs to have to be allowed to be sold as banana"...no joke.
the real problems the citizens worry about are not dealt with, because it might be "political uncorrect" to do so. everyone with half a brain sees that we have a big immigration problem here in germany, and no, I am not blaming the immigrants for it, the politicians are the ones to blame. germany is NOT an immigration country like the USA, Australia, or Canada, simply because the country is way too small...but our politicians say it is one. ok, if germany really is one then immigration should be regulated like it is done in the countries mentioned before. but is it? nope, not all all, everyone can come here and gets money from the state instantly....you surely can imagine what kind of people are attracted by that. so every year billions are spent for people that immigrated into the social system instead of the society....but at the same time police stations have to close because there is not enough money left (if I would be in trouble I would have to wait about an hour for the police to arrive).

and before someone says "germany is simply friendly to immigrants, what's bad about it?" I have a nice example: some years ago big companies were about to invite people from India to hire them as computer experts. a nice thing imo, because germany is about 20 years behind in IT and people from India are known to be taught computer stuff from an early age already. but what happened? politicians went nuts and refused them to work here, they started campaigns like "children instead of indians" forgetting that they have completely failed to establish IT courses in schools. so, Indians had to stay out, instead more people without a minimal perspective to ever get a job were allowed to immigrate. criticize that and you're labeled a "nazi" again (strange that being against educated people from india is NOT "nazi").

our leaders want to nurture us into people that take ANYTHING, they want to make us believe that criticism is something bad by telling us every opinion different from theirs is "nazi".....but for me the right to criticize is what makes a democracy.

and yeah, I will go the same way as you: I'll leave this country.
my parents are pretty old already and they decided to move into a assisted living project next year, then I know people take care of them and can leave without a bad feeling.

Post by **bad_brain** » 03 Nov 2009, 11:14

well, there is a country where democracy is almost perfect: switzerland.
whenever an important decision has to be made in switzerland the citizens have to vote, so there are plenty of polls in a year. the citizens make the decisions, and not, like here, where politicians decide what to do for the next 4 years after they have been elected...if you like it or not, even if they promised the complete opposite before the election.
switzerland is pretty in the middle of europe, but they are not member of the EU....because in march 2001 77% of the citizens voted "no".

Post by **Lundis** » 03 Nov 2009, 14:23

I think the entire voting system is crap. As mentioned, they promise one thing, does another. But what's even more of a problem, in my POV, is that they often do things because doing otherwise would make them look bad, which results in less votes the next election. It doesn't allow them to make necessary decisions, it always has to look good from the regular citizen's POV, which is way too limited. In Finland and Sweden this has caused the social sector to grow way too much, and reducing it is nearly impossible because they wouldn't be elected next time if they did "bad things". So far it works, but if it continues at this rate it'll fail.

The common factor both here and in Germany (and in most countries really) is that the governing system gets stuck in one track and is unable to get our of it. In Germany if someone stand up against the communist/nazi regime, they are labeled as nazis and their political career is over. The system will keep going in the same track until it breaks (or someone miraculously stops it, not likely), which probably will be a civil war.

p4, your idea is pretty good, but there are a few problems. The likeliness for a certain political group to take complete control is very big, since they decide who will take over when they retire. Now, assuming the people don't like them and they don't have overpowered military forces, that's fine, but if they somehow trick the people into sharing their opinion (example: hitler) they can do anything.

What we need is a governing system that can't get stuck. Switzerland does a pretty good job I guess, but again if ppl lose sight of what's important, it can go wrong. People tend to not know what's good for them in the long run...

leetnigga · Post by **leetnigga** » 03 Nov 2009, 14:30

Socialism: You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

n3rd · Post by **n3rd** » 03 Nov 2009, 15:00

leetnigga wrote:Socialism: You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

It means that every one is equal and that everyone gets equal.

but it doesnt work.

Post by **bad_brain** » 03 Nov 2009, 18:24

leetnigga wrote:Socialism: You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

is has not one meaning....it has exactly 260.
if you don't believe me please read "Mythos Sozialismus - Von den Schwierigkeiten der Entmythologisierung einer Ideologie" ("Myth socialism - about the troubles of demystifying an ideology") by Klaus Motschmann.

but ok, as n3rd wrote, the original meaning is "everyone is equal" and/or "all properties are owned by everyone", but the modern meaning(s) of socialism changed a lot especially with the 1960s.
example: the "german democratic republic", form of government: "real-socialistic" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_socialism ).
and you surely will not deny history by telling everyone in the GDR was "equal"....or that everyone was equal in another (earlier) form called "national socialism".

what I mean is the form of government, what you mean is the original ideology....but countries are not governed by ideologies, aren't they?

Post by **bad_brain** » 07 Nov 2009, 06:02

I've just read the daily newspaper and had a real good laugh, so I thought I will share because it's a nice example for the everyday madness in germany.

in Berlin hundreds of cars have been set on fire in this year already, police has no clue who did it (not because they are too stupid, it's simply because of the manpower shortage I talked about earlier already). well, what happened now? did they finally hire more policemen? hell no, the politicians announced that "citizens should take care of it". this alone is already completely hilarious, but it becomes even worse when you put other stories in context:
this is the story of Sven G., a 31 year old german that works as computer expert. a while ago he was in a bar with a friend, when they were on their way home they got attacked by a group of highly aggressive people (they had attacked others already before in that night). the friend of Sven was the first one, he got punched in the face until he was lying on the ground, Sven was of course in total panic because it was absolutely clear he's next. so what he did? he had a little knife hanging around his neck, not a weapon, simply some kind of lucky charm or jewelry...the knife had a length of only 1.5 inch. so he grabbed it and rammed it into the neck of the first one that tried to beat him.
so, how would any normal thinking person would label this? self defense, of course. well, then I have a little surprise for you:
Sven G. was sentenced to 4 years in prison for "attempted homicide" and had to pay 12500 Euro as compensation to the attacker....the attackers were not sentenced at all*. and this is only one of a load of similar cases.

so, as german citizen you only have 2 choices as it seems:
- be nice and let them kick your face in when you're already lying on the ground
- defend yourself and go to jail

and with this background they tell us to do the job of the police?

time to handle it like in the good old days and introduce our politicians to this:

* here's the story (in german):
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0 ... 20,00.html

3XTORTION · Post by **3XTORTION** » 07 Nov 2009, 07:14

Well it's very similar here,the police doesn't even give a fuck about anything.If you call them to inform them about an emergency in the middle of the night they totally ignore you.My neighbor's car was stolen months ago and the police didn't even bother to search and investigate about it.The thieves actually called him and told him to meet them at a certain place and pay 6000 $ to get his car.

And there's certain places that the police can't set foot or interfere in case of emergency or conflict.And the residents don't pay for electricity or phone bills.

Oh well if you see in Europe problems like the ones mentioned,then things happening here are quite normal.

Post by **bad_brain** » 07 Nov 2009, 07:58

well, the police problem here has other reasons I guess.
from what I know (correct me if I am wrong there) police officers in your country have to fear to be attacked by heavily armed militias in certain areas....while in germany police officers have to fear to be labeled as criminal themselves (losing job, going to jail, labeled as "nazis") when they do their job. the government turned the police here into paper tigers, also their equipment is ridiculous....when police officers in a country that is known to be amongst the leading in high tech have to use 30-40 year old analogue radio sets something is really going wrong (many of them already use their private cellphones instead).

the police in the USA surely has some problems, but handling the stuff here as they do would make germany a lot safer....if you attack a cop in the USA he will not hesitate to shoot at you, but here cops are too afraid because of the consequences.

look at this for example:

leftists setting cars on fire (and this is nothing, the real violence starts at night, but I didn't found a video that isn't abused by the leftists to glorify those crimes), but where are the cops? and this happens every year in germany on the 1st of May...of course all "in order to fight fascism". funny that the politicians doesn't seem to notice that those people exactly behave like the nazis did in 1933.

DrVirus · Post by **DrVirus** » 07 Nov 2009, 08:29

Hey guys, Talking about police then let me add a few points. You all heard of 26/11 in India ? For those who don't know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks . In that attack at least 300 people died. Foreign and Indian.

What you don't know is how the terrorists roamed the city. With their AK47 in hand and grenades in the backpack these 8 men walked around the city reaching their targets and then opening fire on unarmed helpless people. The Cops couldn't do much. Do you know why ?? Cause against the AK47 rifles, these guys had .303 rifles. Yeap the one used in WW. In a train station where two terrorist one of them 17-18 years old opened fire on people and the Railway police alike. The poor guys hid behind plastic chairs to survive. No surprisingly not many did.

ATS (Anti Terrorist Squad) chief reached the scene with in minutes of the attack. He had his trusted officers were seen wearing helmets and bulletproof vests infront of a TV camera. Hardly 15 mins after that it was announced that he died in action. It was later reviled that the bullet proof jacket wasn't so bullet proof.

Even after the whole incident. One of our men. A NSG(National Security Guard) commando, Major Sandip Unnikrishnan who died in the battle, his family had to suffer humiliation in National Television by a petty politician.

The Kerala government did not send any representative to attend Major Unnikrishnan's funeral. Local and national media criticized the decision of the local politicians. In what appeared to be an attempt to save face, the Kerala Chief Minister V. S. Achuthanandan and Home Minister Kodiyeri Balakrishnan called on the Unnikrishnan family on November 30, 2008. Sandeep's father K. Unnikrishnan was angry, criticized the visit and required them to leave. He expressed "I dont want any dog to enter my home" (in Malayalam).[19] Later, V. S. Achuthanandan told media that had it not been for Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan, not even a dog would have visited his parents' house.[20] This again invited harsh criticism from the media and public. However, Achuthanandan stated that he would not apologize to the Major's family. He added that he respects the slain Major's family.

The above is according to wikipedia.

But what can be done ? I wrote this. Did that change anything ? Nope. B_B wrote his part. Did that change anything ? Nopes. Nothing ever changes. P4 and B_B both expressed their desire to leave. Go where ? Is that place any different ? Not unless there is a hacker country some where

. Even then, some of us wont be able to leave. What of them ?

Post by **computathug** » 07 Nov 2009, 08:49

This has been happening in my town for as long as i can remember. Where i come from is classed as the 5th most deprived place in the country, yet i wouldn't swap it for anything. OK, i may not like the place but the people here are second to non. Where my mother lives is called Stoops Estate and has been well known as a no go area after dark for quite sometime. Even the buses stopped running up there. I remember the riots of 92 and at that time it wasn't just my town but all over the country. The only difference was in other towns it was more to do with racism where here it was just an attack on the police. People travelled miles just to be a part of the action, to get some revenge on the police that ruled with their truncheons and coshes. My mother lives basically right in the middle of it and is a very respectable person and yet she also sees the problems that the police cause.

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'Copy-cats' blamed for fresh rioting

KATHY MARKS

Wednesday, 22 July 1992

 POLICE patrolled a Lancashire council estate in force yesterday after disturbances that police believe were probably inspired by the weekend riots in Bristol. There were also clashes on an estate in Cumbria, where the local community centre caught fire.

Seventeen people were arrested during four hours of rioting on the Stoops estate in Burnley.

A barricade of wooden pallets was erected across a street and set on fire at the height of the violence, which erupted when about 50 youths began throwing stones.

About 100 riot police who were called in to disperse the crowd were pelted with bottles and other missiles during the disturbances, which lasted for about four hours.

No injuries were reported. Several police vehicles were damaged during the trouble, which followed smaller-scale clashes on Sunday night when youths taunted police. Lancashire police said that it appeared that a 'copy-cat' element was to blame. 'There have been no problems on this estate for a long time, and we are hoping that there will be no recurrence tonight,' it said.

The 17 people arrested, who included two juveniles and four women, were mainly charged with public order offences and may appear in court in Burnley today.

In Carlisle, 11 people were arrested for public order offences on the Raffles housing estate, where a stolen car was abandoned and set alight in front of the community centre on Monday night.

source

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/copycats-blamed-for-fresh-rioting-1534675.html

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Summer 1992 riots in England - European Counter Network
Submitted by captain soap on Aug 13 2009 10:42
tags:

    * UK
    * European Counter Network
    * 1990s
    * riots

Report on housing estate riots in a number of towns across England in the summer of 1992.

The summer has already seen rioting on working class housing estates in several parts of the country. The latest occured in the North of England. In Burnley (Lancashire) there were five nights of rioting on the the Stoops and Hargher Clough estates with burning barricades in the streets and clashes with the police. For instance on the 22nd of July, 35 people were arrested in Burnley on a night during which a police van was damaged by petrol bomb. The police complained that "Some parents are delighted that their children are involved in this, and I think that it is a disgraceful state of affairs."

On the same night in Huddersfield (Yorkshire) at hundreds of youths fought with police on the Brackenhall estate after a police 'drugs raid' on a local pub. 21 cops were injured and 11 people arrested. The next night police were again attacked with stones and petrol bombs in the area. Meanwhile in Blackburn, Lancashire, hundreds of (mainly) asian youths fought with the police for two nights.

A week before there were three nights of rioting on the Hartcliffe estate, Bristol, during which there were 65 arrests. Rioting started on July 16th after two local men, Shaun Starr and Keith Buck, were killed when the stolen police motorbike they were riding was hit by a police car. Shop windows were smashed and police stoned. The next night there was further rioting, including a petrol bomb attack on a police van. One 18-year old woman who took part in the riot said: "It was bloody brilliant. They deserved everything they got and there's more to come".

On the Ordsall Estate in Salford (near Manchester), in the space of several days in the first week of July, fires were started at a council neighbourhood office, a housing office, a careers office, a Department of Health office, a MacDonald's restaurant, and several other buildings. Shots were fired at police vehicles and a petrol bomb thrown at a police station. Also in Salford, eight people in balaclavas attacked a police car that they had lured into an ambush by setting off an alarm. Local youths complained of police violence, with one saying: "There's people who can't pay for electricity. And they're at home in bed, in the dark, and the door's kicked in and all they can see is big torches coming up the stairs and the Bill [the police] is saying 'Stay where you are or you'll get your heads blown off'". Another said: "It's just like Belfast. The police don't relate to the kids. Why are they dragging them in, beating them up?"

In mid-June there was a week of rioting on the Ragworth Estate in Stockton-on-Tees (North East England), with petrol bombs and stones thrown at police. And in May there were four nights of rioting on the WoodEnd Estate in Coventry after police arrested youths riding motorbikes which the police claimed were stolen.

There have also been many other confrontations with the police, on a smaller scale than the riots. For instance on the Marsh Farm estate in Luton (Bedfordshire) a petrol bomb was thrown at a police car during several nights of trouble. In Bournemouth on the 18th July there were 14 arrests after a clash with cops outside a club. On May 17, 150 youths threw stones and bottles at police after they tried to arrest two people riding a motorbike in the Winson Green area of Birmingham. On 26th July bottles were thrown at riot police after a funfair in Southwark, South London and later in the night in the streets of nearby Peckham.

As usual the police have tried to blame "outsiders" for the riots, such as 'Class War'. For instance, a spokesman for West Yorkshire police claimed "We have known for sometime that outsiders were involved in the riots and we are now actively investigating the possible involvement of Class War". They claimed that rioters used CB radios and scanners to monitor police communications. It is true that in some recent riots there appears do have been a high level of organisation, but this is not because of "outsiders". It is because people are quite capable of organising themselves without the help of 'Class War'or anybody else.

There is no real mystery about why people riot. With social conditions of poverty, poor housing and poor health it is a wonder (and a pity) these areas aren't in permanent rebellion. For instance Hartcliffe estate has the highest concentration of long term unemployed in the Bristol area, and double the national average rate of poverty-linked dieseases like asthma and diabetes.

The immediate causes of the riots varied from place to place, but underlying them all is the constant antagonism between the police and working class youths in many areas. On some housing estates there is a state of low-level warfare, with (mostly unemployed) youths being harrassed by the cops, and police being ambushed. The latest riots are an expression of this antagonism, and no doubt there will be more to come.

* There have also been riots in France. Hundreds of north african youths stoned a police station and started fires in the Paris suburb of Epinay-sous-Senart. The protest was apparently against festivities to mark Bastille Day (14/7/92). On July 25th, youths attacked a police station and looted a supermarket in the Paris suburb of Vitry-le-Francois after a motorcycle rider died while trying to evade a police patrol.

Taken from the Practical History website.

Source

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http://libcom.org/history/summer-1992-riots-england-european-counter-network

We also had the race riots in 2001 and heres a few clips from that.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/25/newsid_2519000/2519285.stm

Here is a clip which is really quite shocking but what people dont see is what really is happening here. Now as you know im not racist but what it really is to do with is groups of different races that dont get on. Obviously there was going to be some trouble at some point and the police failed to see this or help to prevent it from happening.

What really started these riots was a young girl who was pregnant to an Asian, Her way to get round telling her parents was to say to people she had been raped by an Asian. Once the truth cam out well after the riots had finished the family had to move before reprisals from both sides of the community.

As in b_b's post about Sven and his self defence method, there is a well documented event where two people tried to burgle a farm house and to their surprise the guy had a gun and shot at them. These people were hardened criminals and if this guy had not retaliated he would have probably been tortured until they got everything they wanted. One of these people died that night and the farm owner got 7 years imprisonment.

Here is a video of what my town looks like. The pub you see at the very end, my mother and father owned that, a lot of happy times at one time in my life from there.

It was not that long ago an old lady rang the police to say someone was in her house. The police took 4 hours to get there and by the time they had the old lady had been beaten up so badly for a principle sum of money amounting to less than £5.

I could go on and on about the subject of the police and the government but i will leave it here. I hope non of you ever have to see the atrocities that i have seen yet i can see this building up again in the future and there still is nothing being done to prevent it. A bit like 9/11 i actually think its encouraged from the people high above us on both sides of the fence. Will it ever end....I don't think so!!!!!

Truth be known....most of us just like fighting the police, we give back as good as we get and aren't afraid. The difference is we get sent to prison for it and the police have the right to do it.

Some more clips of the riots.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b0_UFrAEII&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvW4YKCKL2o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b0_UFrAEII&feature=related

I can understand some peoples issues for instance all you have to do is read the paper every week and if a white guy hits out at an Asian its a racial attack, if its the other way round its classed as an assault. What ever happened to equality.

Is is political correctness gone mad!!!