0 is not a number.

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zak
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0 is not a number.

Post by zak »

if 0 is not a number then 10 can't be a number after that as well so we have after 9, 1 again. so there can only be 9 dollars if 0 is not a number. what do you think.

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l0ngb1t
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Post by l0ngb1t »

0 have a value you know :wink:
decimal is 10 based so you start counting from 0 to 9... 0 to 9 are ten numbers so you rest your counting and u start with 10 (another level if you want) 11 is like the second number in the 2sd 10th
same in binary but 2 based 0 then 1 then 10 then 11 ....
so no there is a 10$ bill :P:P
Last edited by l0ngb1t on 18 Jan 2010, 17:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Big-E »

I think you have just rattled the very foundations of our existence. I mean, you may have came across the most prolific discovery our human existence. You should report this to the media immediately, they may try to silence you but you MUST get this out to the world. Tell everyone about your discovery! Quick, before someone else tries to claim this discovery as their own.

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Post by Necrix »

If hydrogen is a gas...and oxygen is a gas...then water must be a gas, too!
Water CAN'T be a liquid..because hydrogen and oxygen are gases! O_O


Really..


..Who told you that 0 isn't a number?

Are you under the impression that 0 is a letter?
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Post by nightkid »

0 is a number, absolutely. it just doesnt have a value but it still serves a purpose..if there was no 0, how would you express you have nothing. just by habit when your counting you always start at one, everyone is taught to start with 1 since kinder garden but when dealing with negatives numbers is one of the rare occasions you recognize 0 as a number.
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Post by Lundis »

Why wouldn't 0 be a number/value? I don't see how it is any different from the other numbers.

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Post by DNR »

That theory is for normal humans - they were brought up to think 0 means nothing. They were taught math like "If you have 2 crack pipes and the po-po takes 2 crack pipes from you, how many crack pipes do you have?" kind of math. :lol:

For 'hackers', especially the ones that know their code and machines, 0 is a valuable number. We were taught that everything has a value, at the very basic - the value is either on or off - and both equally important.

If you had started 'hacking' back in the early days of computing, you would have been brought up on hexidecimal and binary theories;
In mathematics and computer science, hexadecimal (also base 16, or hex) is a positional numeral system with a radix, or base, of 16. It uses sixteen distinct symbols, most often the symbols 0–9 to represent values zero to nine, and A, B, C, D, E, F (or alternatively a through f) to represent values ten to fifteen. For example, the hexadecimal number 2AF3 is equal, in decimal, to (2 × 163) + (10 × 162) + (15 × 16) + 3, or 10,995.

Each hexadecimal digit represents four binary digits (bits) (also called a "nibble"), and the primary use of hexadecimal notation is as a human-friendly representation of binary coded values in computing and digital electronics. For example, byte values can range from 0 to 255 (decimal) but may be more conveniently represented as two hexadecimal digits in the range 00 through FF. Hexadecimal is also commonly used to represent computer memory addresses.
as well as binary
The binary numeral system, or base-2 number system represents numeric values using two symbols, 0 and 1
We think of file space. every bit or byte, or space, has to have some value, even if it is just 0. Zero might sound like nothing, but it has the value of zero!
Remember IPs even use the 0 - 129.168.0.0 - 129.168.255.255 - a router can sit on 10.0.0.0

This might be a good test to determine if you are 'normal' or a hacker -
"Does 0 have any value?"
8)

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Post by lilrofl »

Food for thought, it really depends on the definition of number.

Zero clearly has a place in the set of real numbers as a place holder, or a non-value... but we don't start counting with zero (computers do but that's a little off topic) This can be expressed by saying that a set of all natural numbers does not contain zero among them.

So what the hell is zero for if it is not a natural number you ask? Well that's kind of fun. In the development of your natural number set you inevitably end up with a non-positive integer. From 1, 2, 3, etc to -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, et nausium..

So now we have two sets of numbers, the natural numbers containing all the positive integers, and the rational numbers containing all positive integers and their inverses... except zero who does not have a multiplicative inverse. The organization of the numbers into a rational set allows us, by process, to manipulate the numbers and always end up with a value that is comparable to other numbers.

Here's where we add the irrational numbers to complete a whole set of numbers combining all rational and irrational values divided, separated and thus defined by zero.

In all the stages of the development of our number system, all but the first stage contains a zero, so if you restrict your definition of zero to natural numbers you are correct... zero is not a number... and neither are decimals, fractions or functions.

Good topic though =)
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Post by floodhound2 »

I am going to go off topic a bit.

Mathematicians have made some mistakes in the history of mathematics. One was not using a 0. Early mathematics had no 0 and they did not get far.

Another mathematical mistake is the square root. You never need the square root because you can just use fractional exponents. 25^1/2 for example = 5. There are other mistakes that calculus solves with elegance.
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Post by IceDane »

Floodhound: Using rational numbers as exponents is not 'another thing' that does the same thing as the root function - they are completely identical.

E.g.

root(a, b^c) = b^(c/a)

root(2, 4) = 4^(1/2)

Using this definition:

(-1)^(0.5) = root(2, -1), which is still an imaginary number.
If hydrogen is a gas...and oxygen is a gas...then water must be a gas, too!
Water CAN'T be a liquid..because hydrogen and oxygen are gases! O_O


Really..


..Who told you that 0 isn't a number?

Are you under the impression that 0 is a letter?
It seems that you both completely missed the point and failed chemistry.

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Post by floodhound2 »

That's what I said did I not?

The square root is a waste of time to learn its a mistake in mathematics.
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Post by leetnigga »

floodhound2 wrote:The square root is a waste of time to learn its a mistake in mathematics.
....

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Post by bad_brain »

yeup, you can dot until you drop, but even mathematics goes the wrong way from time to time.... :lol:
I remember how we were tortured with "theory of aggregates" in elementary school because it was supposed to be a "very important element of mathematics"....some years later it was removed from the curriculum because it is absolutely pointless and useless, nobody ever heard of it...some say it lives under a stone in a forest now.
people should stop to see mathematics as absolute truth.

back to zero:
if it's a number or not is an almost philosophical question.....it depends on the POV and the context. necrix was right, it isn't a letter, so it's a number...but the question is: do you see it as pure definition (then 0 IS a number) or do you see it as value (0 is nothing, and nothing isn't a value, if you disagree then divide 5 with 0 and let me know the result).
imo 0 was the spare tire for mathematicians when they ran into problems they couldn't explain with their "absolute truth"...so they invented something that can be kinda anything.
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Post by IceDane »

floodhound2 wrote:That's what I said did I not?

The square root is a waste of time to learn its a mistake in mathematics.
Since it seems as if you aren't understanding me, let me reverse this and rephrase:

How is raising a number to a fractional power better than square root?

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Post by Dltr »

Hmm .. i dont know if it too late or not to discuss about it ...


But First the Zero( 0 ) is one of the Integers
The Integers are formed by the natural numbers including 0 (0, 1, 2, 3, ...) together with the negatives of the non-zero natural numbers (−1, −2, −3, ...). Viewed as subset of the real numbers
The Algebraic Properties of the Integers and The Zero do correspond those Properties
The Algebraic properties according to the addition and multiplication Functions
Closure
Associativity
Commutativity
Existence of an identity element
Existence of inverse elements
Distributivity
No zero divisors
@ zak And By The Way there is also a Type of Zero called The Signed Zero and it is a Zero with an affiliated sign.In mathematics − 0 = 0 = + 0, both −0 and +0 represent the exact same number, zero has two distinct representations, one grouping it with the positive numbers and one with the negatives; this latter representation is known as negative zero.Informally, one may use the notation "−0" for a negative value that was rounded to zero. This notation may be useful when a negative sign is significant; for example, when tabulating Celsius temperatures, where a negative sign means "below freezing".

the confusing Thing is that People argue whether -1 or -2 is a number because you can't have -2 sheep.This argument ... is pointless says Gleason's theorem, because it's a matter of definition... On the other hand, it seems that there is a super-convention that restricts the word 'number' to entities which have some sort of arithmetic.
Telephone numbers, aren't really numbers, he says, because adding them has no meaning. Zero is a number, by definition and the rules of arithmetic. Add zero to any number and you obtain that number.

Thank You
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Last edited by Dltr on 19 Jan 2010, 15:04, edited 1 time in total.

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