Alien life - proven?

[Gogeta70]

Don't call me crazy, ok?

First off, i suggest watching the disclosure project video. It's about 2 hours long but gives a lot of interesting information regarding this topic.

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Now you may say, "Alien life? Not a chance in hell." However, think about things this way:

The big bang theory has gained a great amount of scientific backing within the last 10 years and is accepted by most of the scientific community, so i'm going to use this as a basis for what i'm about to say. Shorty after the big bang (millions of years) the first stars formed using very basic elements such as helium and hydrogen. These stars drew together these basic elements and over a long period of time, created more complex elements and compounds like water, metals, etc. Jumping forward, the earth was created shortly after our own sun formed. It was caused by the rotation of the sun "flinging" off bits and pieces of itself and cooling to create rocks which, due to gravity, got stuck in orbit and cooled. I imagine at this time the gravity of these planets gradually drew other elements toward them. Some planets are created in the "habitable zone," meaning that there is a greater chance of life existing on planets within this zone due mainly to the distance from the star that the planet is. Every planet formed in this way, around an innumerable number of stars.

So naturally, the chances of life existing elsewhere is somewhat higher than originally expected. For example, see this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../581g- ... 44635.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

[bad_brain]

you are crazy!

I am sure there is life on other planets, thinking we are the only ones in the whole universe would be foolhardy. but what we can see of the universe, even with the best telescopes or satellites, is like one step out of the door of your home....so we will not be able to actively look for other lifeforms for a long time, and if there are lifeforms that could visit us their state of evolution would be so much more advanced that they surely don't have an interest in primitives like us.

[floodhound2]

I consider that there is a fair possibility aliens currently exists but with that said, they would never be able to reach our system and so no one can claim to see an alien.

Existence -
In my opinion they exists strictly on basis that space has lots of matter. It would be foolish to think that all that stuff (matter) can’t bear life. Considering the fact that life on Earth populates some extreme environments highlights the notion. Not to long ago life was found living mere feet from lava flows deep beneath the ocean. That’s extreme heat (lave) and cold (ocean floor)!

No Aliens will ever visit Earth -
Since space is gargantuan even on paper. Think about the speed of light and then think about how far some other galaxies are from Earth. Millions upon trillions of miles away!

Some numbers to chew on and let’s forget about Relativity in this example. You know Math will never lie...

A beam of light travels 9,500,000,000,000 kilometers per year. That distance alone is almost un-comprehensible! Another way of looking at it, the Andromeda Galaxy, our nearest galaxy is 21,000,000,000,000,000,000 km. This is a number so large that it’s difficult to construe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-year The distance to other Galaxies from Earth increases steadily. 2,5,or over 10 light years away! Remember 6 trillion miles per year trailing at the speed of light relative to our sun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-year

Mix together the space cocktail I have just described and you can understand that the distance and speed is spectacularly overwhelming. If that is not convincing enough consider the amount of energy needed to propel a unit of mass. You would need to consume stars upon stars of energy with a propelling device (steam engine ) running near if not 100 percent efficiency, yet another feat of impossibility due to the conservation of energy law.

One can deduct that Its increasingly slim odds with yet, incredibly slimmer odds that an alien life-form would visit Earth! Even introducing Relativity one could better the odds slightly. Yet If light is the only constant in the universe and time changes as with distance. Then Aliens could visit but we would not be able to sense them with our technological devices let alone our primitive 5 human senses.

Good topic...

[Gogeta70]

Floodhound - what about other planets within our own galaxy? Neighboring solar systems aren't that far, relatively speaking. Also, here's some speculative science.

The technology we have today may limit us to very slow speeds, but technology is evolving very quickly. Currently, we can only put out so much force to move an object of a large mass at high speeds. However, here are some thoughts.

According to newton's second law, acceleration is proportional to force and inversely proportional to mass. This means that double the force means double the acceleration, while double the mass means half the acceleration. This fact is also backed up with the equation for momentum: Momentum = Mass * Velocity. You get a large mass moving at a relatively slow velocity, reduce the mass to a small portion of it's original quantity, and your velocity will increase significantly.

Another, more off-the-wall theory is based on gravity. We pretty much know that gravity is the result of a quantity of mass causing space to bend - the more mass, the more space bends, the more gravity. If we found a way to cause space to bend to such a degree that we could travel an extremely small distance and literally end up light years away from the starting point - we could travel practically anywhere.

But hell, maybe this is just a bunch of pseudo-science. Lol.

[maboroshi]

Some scientists believe there are wormholes in space which allow for traveling great distances at least that's one theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[JuggaloMushroom]

Life on other planets, is possible. To assume they are not as advance as we are, or even further, is arrogant. Though I will say that I could expect a majority to be less advance than we are, as life springs sporadicly and starts evolving. With that said, Gogeta70 you are crazy, seek psychiatric help.

[floodhound2]

G, I applaud your questioning and hope you continue to dissect this topic.

Allow the math to speak...

...nothing can approach the speed of light because of this simple equation.



It shows the relationship of mass with respect to velocity and the speed of light. It shows that as velocity increases as will the mass, and in turn the need for more energy. It creates a devouring paradox of energy and speed resulting in a obscene amount of mass (that naturally wants to slow down). let me explain more in case there are math haters that don't see the value of that equation.

In the equation you should notice that inside the square root is 1 - V² / c². This means that the velocity squared divided by the speed of light squared can never be greater than one or even equal to 1. If it is greater than 1 then the square root will be a negative number (not good). Its naturally impossible to multiply 2 negative numbers and still get a negative number. If its equal to 1 you get a fraction that has a 0 in the detonator and thats not a number. Result means that the speed of light is the fastest thing ever nothing else!

Because masses approach infinity with increasing speed, it is impossible to accelerate an alien to or past the speed of light. To do so would require an infinite force. And in order to travail in this universe you need to haul some ass or you'll get no where. Even near galaxies take life times if not generations of time while traveling at small percentages of the speed of light.

As with Gravity bending space and time sort of like a taco so you could reach some distance planet with out moving is not realistic because of the mass that would be required. Gravity is a weak force so its unlikely that an alien could or would use gravity to get here. Also a gravity wave is slow. If the sun exploded today would the Earth be instantly tossed out of orbit or would the explosion of light reach Earth first?

Yea now you are thinking

Besides all this talk about aliens, relativity explains more oddities that obstruct the notion that one could visit from distance space.

A great video that may shed some light on relativity and in easy to understand language. Its long and styled in the 80s so be warned.

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[leetnigga]

I think the possibility of intelligent alien life is very exciting.

Funny there's a picture of the Bohr model in the background in that lecture, floodhound2.

gogeta70, it seems that you're using some words that I'm very fond of, but you're not using them correctly.
Let me give some definitions (directly from the dictionary).
A proof is sufficient evidence or argument for the truth of a proposition.
Science is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the natural world.
Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice posing as science, but which does not constitute or adhere to an appropriate scientific methodology, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, or otherwise lacks scientific status.
A scientific theory is a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts.

Firstly you ask "alien life - proven?". If it were in fact proven, you'd probably know about it. Nothing in your posts is about proof for alien life.
Then, you announce you're going to do "speculative science". If you know what those two words mean, you know that the combination in that way does not make sense. You weren't doing any science. You were just talking and speculating.

Also a gravity wave is slow. If the sun exploded today would the Earth be instantly tossed out of orbit or would the explosion of light reach Earth first?

Actually, by the theory of special relativity gravity travels at c.

For a great book about space travel and alien life, I can recommend Pale Blue Dot by Carl Sagan.

[floodhound2]

Leet,

I suppose looking back I mislead my Gravity Wave example. I was trying to conjure up a thought experiment and became confused while wording my sentence at the time of writing.

Not to stray from the original posting by G, but I stand corrected. Gravity waves in fact have never been measured in a laboratory. Thanks!

[Gogeta70]

Ok leet, i'll play. The reason i say "proven?" is because of that youtube video that i posted in the very first post in this topic - they're a group of generally credible people saying they have experienced alien activity. Not to say i'm just going to believe them for no reason, but it could definitely stand as evidence towards being proven. Next, science. I assume you're referring to when i said "speculative science." I was making speculations without doing any further research than my own knowledge, but i was still referring to solid scientific facts. Thus, "scientific speculation".

Third, pseudoscience. This can be summarized as "fake science." Put into context, this means i said "maybe this is just a bunch of fake science."

And lastly, theory. Including your definition, theory can also be defined as follows:
An unproven conjecture; An expectation of what should happen, barring unforeseen circumstances.

Clearly, i was stating what i would expect to happen in that situation.

Well, now that that's out of the way...

Floodhound, i know nothing can travel faster than light. Even traveling close to the speed of light is a feat within itself. Traveling half the speed of light is still incredibly fast, surely fast enough to get to neighboring stars within our own galaxy. Who says that alien life has to exist only in galaxies other than ours?

[floodhound2]

G,
I just play the numbers game and to me its obvious. Its not going to be possible in my lifetime or many after, that an alien visit will be factually recorded by humans. This is not to say that I am right of course. This question you posted can "truthfully" neither be disproved or proved. Hell there could be ten duotrigintillion microscopic bacteria soaring towards our planet in the 7th and 11th dimension all modulating gravity vapor.

I just cant believe other people, the video looks like people needing to spend tax dollars. I have to see it with my own eyes or postulate. Since I never seen an alien and the statical probability is incredibly small (so much shit in space, why pick us) I have to disregard anyone stating they seen an alien. Looks like snake oil to me.

[leetnigga]

I didn't watch the video at first because, well, it's two fucking hours.

Ok leet, i'll play. The reason i say "proven?" is because of that youtube video that i posted in the very first post in this topic - they're a group of generally credible people saying they have experienced alien activity. Not to say i'm just going to believe them for no reason, but it could definitely stand as evidence towards being proven.

In a crackpot infested area like this, I don't think the credentials of witnesses are very convincing. They're impressive, sure, but if the president of the United States tells me he was healed by homeopathic "medicine" it's not going to change the fact that there is no scientific proof of it being effective. Eyewitness testimony is the least credible type of evidence. It's no substitute for scientific evidence. If you think a lot of people saying something constitutes scientific evidence, you ought to raise the bar. The fact that this is about UFO's should make you raise the bar even further.

You might enjoy reading: The UFO disclosure myth.

Next, science. I assume you're referring to when i said "speculative science." I was making speculations without doing any further research than my own knowledge, but i was still referring to solid scientific facts. Thus, "scientific speculation".

To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.
"speculative science" implies that your science is speculative. That doesn't make any sense, which was my point.
You were saying "if this, then maybe that". That's not science, even when you use Newton's laws (which were produced using the scientific method) in your story.

Third, pseudoscience. This can be summarized as "fake science." Put into context, this means i said "maybe this is just a bunch of fake science."

Yes. And since you weren't doing any science (unless you're claiming you were), pseudoscience is also off the table. You could have said "But maybe I'm wrong", or "I'm just sayin'".

And lastly, theory. Including your definition, theory can also be defined as follows:
An unproven conjecture; An expectation of what should happen, barring unforeseen circumstances.

Clearly, i was stating what i would expect to happen in that situation.

Ah, I was talking about scientific theory. You were using it in the colloquial sense. I think "theories" like yours aren't very useful. "Imagine if we could do that, then we could travel across space." "Imagine this, then we could travel through time.". You assume something that is imaginary, and then you state something that follows from the imaginary thing you assumed. Not very productive, in my opinion.

[n3rd]

science has not come this far yet, but I suggest we take mass out of the equation Why? because in the future we will be able to bend space in order to have no resistance and thus we will be able to be pushed by light itself.

/scifi rant.

[Shimo]

You know, I'm not a huge theoretical math or theoretical pyhsics person. But why are we so dead set in ideaoly as the human race that distance is a staionary number, speed is also only directly affected by mass, propulsion, and gravity (Kinda ties in with propulsion.). Also who ever made it "law" that light without a doubt is the fastest particulate in the universe in a very close minded pesimist..... Anything that we percieve with vision is most likely built up upon a smaller matter, in this case wouldn't it be sub atomic particles? I mean I'm no expert, but do we really know what kind of energy light is really made of? And if it is made up of a smaller particle, just like all particles it should be able to vibrate and move within a confined area, now if it can move in that confined area; theorecticly it's moveing faster than the light when it's traveling in the same direction. Possibly even in the opposite reaction. And even better yet for propelling areselves. (Granted we can build something that can stand the force.) What if we were to split one of these "sub atomic particles." Would it just explode? Creat prupolsion in all directions around, etc. Saying were limited to distace and the speed of light seems very daft to me. We've already proven that gravity affects time and space as well. Couldn't we (or an alien species of some sort.) Either find a way to warp space for greater speed, or rather shorter distances, or even use gravity to slow down or speed up time around the space ship, speed and distance varies with gravity. Say we were able to place a large directionalized gravitational pull and the front of the ship and a reverse system at the back, if we could maintain the distance I theorize that we would have somewhat of a vacum effect, and I use the word vacum lightly as were in space here. Think of what we could do if we could combine 2 or more of these ideas in some way, Suddenly intergalatic travel seems much more possible. At least given that we wait a couple thousand years. lol Please feel free to point out any problems you see, I like to learn and I won't be offended.
P.S. Leet, you seem a little on edge about this, it's just a friendly conversation. Relax. Okay?

[floodhound2]

Shimo,
Allow me to stir the pot a bit.

You know, I'm not a huge theoretical math or theoretical pyhsics person. But why are we so dead set in ideaoly as the human race that distance is a staionary number

I agree and mentioned this in one of my post. Again the Lorentz Contraction proves this.

speed is also only directly affected by mass, propulsion, and gravity (Kinda ties in with propulsion.).

I tend to think that speed, mass, gravity are just energy. Energy in different states. So sure its all related and all arr dynamic.

Also who ever made it "law" that light without a doubt is the fastest particulate in the universe in a very close minded pesimist..... Anything that we percieve with vision is most likely built up upon a smaller matter, in this case wouldn't it be sub atomic particles? I mean I'm no expert, but do we really know what kind of energy light is really made of? And...

Our current understanding of mathematics, this same understanding that brought you and I all our technology gadgets. Its this math that took man to the moon and made what we know as life, our life. Its the math that becomes the truth teller. Light is the universal constant as far as I am concerned. Sure someone can be traveling away or towards you and you may think that the speed of light would change because of the directional difference. But it remains the same speed.

if it is made up of a smaller particle, just like all particles it should be able to vibrate and move within a confined area, now if it can move in that confined area; theorecticly it's moveing faster than the light when it's traveling in the same direction. Possibly even in the opposite reaction. And even better yet for propelling areselves. (Granted we can build something that can stand the force.)

Light is a particle and a wave right?

What if we were to split one of these "sub atomic particles." Would it just explode? Creat prupolsion in all directions around, etc. Saying were limited to distace and the speed of light seems very daft to me. We've already proven that gravity affects time and space as well. Couldn't we (or an alien species of some sort.) Either find a way to warp space for greater speed, or rather shorter distances, or even use gravity to slow down or speed up time around the space ship, speed and distance varies with gravity. Say we were able to place a large directionalized gravitational pull and the front of the ship and a reverse system at the back, if we could maintain the distance I theorize that we would have somewhat of a vacum effect, and I use the word vacum lightly as were in space here. Think of what we could do if we could combine 2 or more of these ideas in some way, Suddenly intergalatic travel seems much more possible. At least given that we wait a couple thousand years.

Warping space is a romantic idea greet idea but I still think it wont make space travel faster or possible!

My reason is as follows; Imagine I see a star in the night sky. I just so happen to invent a gravity warping machine and I am going to warp space to get to the star. My problem is that the star in the night sky is light that went out millions of years ago relative to me. Thus said, I would be arriving at a place that has already past time. Its not possible in my opinion to warp space and get to places because the place wont be as you perceived it before warping space. Alien cant visit us because we are not here when they arrive! ^^

What do you think fellas?